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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Family member shocked I get universal credit

228 replies

JungleJungle · 06/01/2023 22:40

Had a long conversation with a family member today. I've just started a new job so not sure how much UC I will get this month, but previously was earning about 1800 a month, £950 childcare costs and £950 rent and would get, around £800 in universal credit. They seemed to think that I earn enough money to pay for myself and said nobody on 30k a year should be getting universal credit. They were quite shocked that I was getting anything. Childcare costs and rent come to more than my wage (£1900). I would likely have to give up work if I didn't get universal credit. My outgoings would be more than my incoming. I still struggle even with the £700 I have left after rent and childcare costs. Bills are so high, fuel, food, clothes, emergencies etc. Not sure what I'm looking for from this thread. I work so hard, full time, and never considered that I shouldn't be entitled to universal credit. I'm not being unreasonable am I in thinking that this is what UC is for, am I? Apologies for the slightly waffly post, just feeling a bit shit.

OP posts:
Cantstandbullshitanymore · 07/01/2023 01:02

JungleJungle · 06/01/2023 22:51

I just don't know how anyone can be shocked at someone getting universal credit when their rent and childcare alone, without other bills comes to more than their wage. My only other alternative is to just give up work, which seems like madness. Men who father children then abuse their mothers forcing them to leave should be made to pay far more. Sorry. I could rant all day about it... I hate my situation.

I think the bigger issue is that things are so bad now that despite working very hard and full time you can’t survive without universal credit. This isn’t blaming you but how bad things are now and if it continues the implications for our kids and future generations will be hard. The UK has faced poor wage growth for a very long time and this is one of impacts.

Infact, I was reaching an article or post where someone was saying their annual wage with years of experience is now very close to the new minimum wage, let that sink in. And I think this will get worse for a while before it will start to get better.

There will need to be significant fundamental changes to increase competition, productivity and wages in the UK, we cannot continue to have an increasing number of people working very hard and full time and still having to be supported, we need those people who are able to work full time to be in a position to contribute to the ph mic purse, and universal credit should be for people who cannot work for what’s we reason eg lost their jobs, disabled etc.

Again this is not blaming you but how bad things are with the wage stagnation etc. You are getting the benefits you’re entitled to given the circumstances we find ourselves.

JungleJungle · 07/01/2023 01:04

SpringsRightAroundTheCorner · 07/01/2023 00:56

Hmm I have 3 degrees, work ft and by the time I have paid my student loan, tax, ni and into a pension I'm only taking home £400 more than you on nearly 40k. I get 0 help with my costs (I have 3 kids) but I'm married. We live in a cheaper part of the country and saved for many years to buy a house with a large ltv so that the mortgage itself was very manageable.

It's a sad reality that so many people have children in rocky relationships before marriage and real commitment, not owning their own home and so people like us who spend years saving, establishing ourselves end up propping up people who could have done the same, saved, established themselves instead of diving in, having children and then realising actually this person is awful, oops I have children and now can't afford to live. You read it time and time again on here women having kids, unmarried early into a relationship. Piss poor planning I'm afraid. Don't worry though the state will prop you and your kids up and pay your childcare and rent costs, meanwhile we'll pay our own childcare and mortgage. It's annoying for anyone who doesn't expect handouts earning a similar amount.

Marriages do break down of course, a good friend of mine divorced last year, she's on 37k and couldn't get any help. She took over the mortgage and bought her husband out the house, so I'm quite surprised you get that. Her husband pays minimum child maintenance earning 60k, it isn't a lot though, certainly nowhere near your £800 a month. Maybe she shouldn't have got married and bought a house she'd probably be better off now living on a handout topup.

I have a BSc and a masters and a PhD as well as two work funded diplomas. Don't see why that is relevant. I used to own my own house. I will never get married because I don't want to. I had a child with an abusive man through coercive control and sexual assault. It happens. My situation is not as you describe (unless you think it is?).

OP posts:
NewYearNewCareer · 07/01/2023 01:04

It is shocking that someone on £30K can’t afford to support themselves and their family.

If you look at it objectively, if companies paid a living way that entitled you to pay a mortgage, bills, childcare and take a couple of holidays a year, then you wouldn’t need benefits.
Compare that you you claiming for a few years, you salary doesn’t increase and you’ll lose the UC at some point - if you were earning enough money you would be better off, and not running to stand still.

The system isn’t designed to help people in the long term, it’s a quick fix that effectively reduces salary.

AssumingDirectControl · 07/01/2023 01:05

NameChagaiiiin · 07/01/2023 00:57

No, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Without me returning to work, so only on DH income, we aren't entitled to a bean of UC. Only the 20,% tax free childcare element.

I can't return to work as childcare and travel costs aren't worth it.

Rock and a hard place.

But your situation is totally different.

if you did return to work, you’d be earning more than OP by yourself and your DH is also earning well, so by the time you split the childcare costs you’d still have more coming in than OP. And if you don’t return to work and live on your husbands full time salary, you don’t have the childcare costs. Your situation is different to that if OP however you look at it.

CavalierApproach · 07/01/2023 01:05

SpringsRightAroundTheCorner · 07/01/2023 00:56

Hmm I have 3 degrees, work ft and by the time I have paid my student loan, tax, ni and into a pension I'm only taking home £400 more than you on nearly 40k. I get 0 help with my costs (I have 3 kids) but I'm married. We live in a cheaper part of the country and saved for many years to buy a house with a large ltv so that the mortgage itself was very manageable.

It's a sad reality that so many people have children in rocky relationships before marriage and real commitment, not owning their own home and so people like us who spend years saving, establishing ourselves end up propping up people who could have done the same, saved, established themselves instead of diving in, having children and then realising actually this person is awful, oops I have children and now can't afford to live. You read it time and time again on here women having kids, unmarried early into a relationship. Piss poor planning I'm afraid. Don't worry though the state will prop you and your kids up and pay your childcare and rent costs, meanwhile we'll pay our own childcare and mortgage. It's annoying for anyone who doesn't expect handouts earning a similar amount.

Marriages do break down of course, a good friend of mine divorced last year, she's on 37k and couldn't get any help. She took over the mortgage and bought her husband out the house, so I'm quite surprised you get that. Her husband pays minimum child maintenance earning 60k, it isn't a lot though, certainly nowhere near your £800 a month. Maybe she shouldn't have got married and bought a house she'd probably be better off now living on a handout topup.

Christ, the breathtaking ignorance and nastiness of this, especially given the OP’s actual history. Although even if her path to motherhood was as you describe, this would still be a horrible take.

I really don’t know what else to say, I’m actually horrified by your post.

808Kate1 · 07/01/2023 01:06

@SpringsRightAroundTheCorner Hark at little miss perfect here. It could all come crumbling down on you tomorrow sweetpea. And whose going to "prop you up" then?

JungleJungle · 07/01/2023 01:07

CavalierApproach · 07/01/2023 01:05

Christ, the breathtaking ignorance and nastiness of this, especially given the OP’s actual history. Although even if her path to motherhood was as you describe, this would still be a horrible take.

I really don’t know what else to say, I’m actually horrified by your post.

Horrible read. Basically, unless you have lots of money, off the the abortion clinic with you.

OP posts:
NameChagaiiiin · 07/01/2023 01:09

Babyroobs · 07/01/2023 01:00

Can you work around each other ? Obviously that mind need a change of work but to be honest that's what most parents did when my kids were young. there just wasn't the childcare help available.

Complicated work and shift situations for us both. We're still looking at options but it just baffles me that with 2 above average salaries on paper, the reality of childcare costs plus living costs is going to push us into a shitshow.

Before anyone jumps on me about planning ahead, just don't. My DD was a happy shock and I was well into my 2nd trimester before we knew she was there 🤣

Cantstandbullshitanymore · 07/01/2023 01:09

Teresa777 · 07/01/2023 00:20

A state pension is entirely different. You’ve paid into that all your working life through NICs.and are more than entitled to it. It’s not a benefit.

Not true - the state pension is a benefit payment, which technically you have not paid a penny into because the current state pension is paid by current taxpayers through the NI Fund. The number of years you pay national insurance contributions determines whether or not you get the full state pension.

OP, you're not being unreasonable at all but don't mention money to them again. You're doing all the right things, although it's utterly crap that you're in a situation where you do need to claim UC. Don't let their comments make you feel shit, and I hope your new job goes well.

I disagree re state pension, you pay NI with the promise that if you contribute for xx number of years, you get yy amount per month when you reach retirement age, it is not a benefit.

That is very very very different from universal credit and should not be compared.

NameChagaiiiin · 07/01/2023 01:12

JungleJungle · 07/01/2023 01:04

I have a BSc and a masters and a PhD as well as two work funded diplomas. Don't see why that is relevant. I used to own my own house. I will never get married because I don't want to. I had a child with an abusive man through coercive control and sexual assault. It happens. My situation is not as you describe (unless you think it is?).

This is far more polite than I would've been OP. Hats off to you

JungleJungle · 07/01/2023 01:15

NameChagaiiiin · 07/01/2023 01:12

This is far more polite than I would've been OP. Hats off to you

Well I've already had one silly argument with a total imbecile tonight, I can't really be bothered to have another.

OP posts:
altmember · 07/01/2023 01:17

People shouldn't be surprised. A couple both working full time and with 3 kids living in rented accommodation could be entitled to nearly £900 a month of universal credit. And that's with zero child care expenses. Interestingly, if they had a mortgage instead of renting they'd only be entitled to £250 a month. I wonder how many people are deterred from home ownership because they'd lose all their housing benefit and have to pay the mortgage unaided? It's hardly an incentive is it. And it must be costing the state a huge amount in benefits, whilst it's ultimately lining the pockets of private landlords. The disincentive for those is social housing to get on the property ownership ladder is even larger, which is why we have so many people clogging up social housing stock despite having progressed to a stronger financial position. All we're doing is enabling them to sustain a luxury lifestyle while other, more needy families are homeless.

This is a part of the real 'Broken Britain' - we have ended up with an economy where so many people are reliant on benefits to survive. This isn't a criticism of people on 'low' incomes (I'm a relatively low earner myself, and a single parent in receipt of child tax credits, which a lot of people who know me would never guess).

Rather, it's an observation of the problem that the cost of living is so far above the lower/average incomes that people can't survive on their wages alone. It shouldn't be the case, it's not sustainable long term.

I don't really know what the solution is, but I do think that it's artificially caused an inflation because people at the lower end have more disposable income to spend more, and that creates more demand and drives up prices. People seem to have been conditioned to a debt culture (go to uni, pay huge fees, graduate with a massive millstone of a loan to repay). Then everything is on a monthly payment/finance plan - cars, mobile phones etc. Hardly anyone used to have a new car, you'd save up and buy what you could afford. But now it's almost a norm that people have something new/almost new on an 'affordable' monthly
plan. When in reality they're just paying the depreciation on an asset that they don't even own. The irony is that cars are better built/more reliable than ever - 30 years ago a 10 year old car was a rust bucket (but a common one), now a 10 year old car is almost as good as new. Yet hardly anyone wants to be seen driving one, mainly because all their neighbours have something newer.

Another part of the equation is that domestic situations have changed - there are far more single parent families than there were 30 years ago. That has led to more demand for housing since each separated couple now needs two homes, especially if shared care is occurring. In the past, couples simply couldn't afford to split, so (rightly or wrongly) more people made their relationships work. We also traditionally had families with a main 'breadwinner' which kept the other parent free to do the domestic stuff and childcare. Now we have a massive childcare industry and which is so expensive that a lot of people spend their entire wages on childcare. If there wasn't such a generous amount of childcare benefits there, would child care have gotten so expensive (supply and demand)? Does it make sense for a parent to put their own kids into someone else's care so that they can go out to work themselves, simply to pay for that care? Society (primarily women) have been conditioned that they can (and should) have it all - maintain a high flying career whilst simultaneously raising a family. That's fucking hard to achieve in reality, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to juggle it all. I don't think it's right to put that much pressure on people, yet it's become a societal norm. You're almost made to feel like a failure if you don't do both at the same time.

This is a modern creation, over the last 25 years. It's all a bit chicken and egg, and trying to fix it is like trying to put the genie back in the bottle. As I said, I don't know what the solution is, but it's going to be painful to tighten our belts. People need to get off the hamster wheel of life - live to work, not work to live, and lower their sense of entitlement (again easier said than done when we've all been conditioned into it).

And the bigger economic picture of the UK is pretty bleak too I feel. We've got rid of nearly all of our industry - undervalued and driven out/sold of by governments over the last 50 years. We barely make anything any more, what we have left is all tertiary. And however fashionable it is, the country cannot survive long term on just service/financial 'industries'.

In conclusion, we're fucked and it's looking very bleak for our children. The only option for many is to ride the system and be a good little citizen.

Teresa777 · 07/01/2023 01:17

@Cantstandbullshitanymore Firstly, I didn't compare it to UC. And yes, it is officially classed as a benefit and has been for quite a few years now - it's a non-means tested benefit. How much you will receive does depend on how much NI you have paid, it's dependent on how many qualifying years you have built up.

Teresa777 · 07/01/2023 01:18

*doesn't depend on how much NI you have paid,

TimeFlysWhenYoureHavingRum · 07/01/2023 01:21

Yanbu. Wages have been depressed for 20 years while inflation has gone through the roof. The government is effectively subsidising employers to allow this to continue.
You have done nothing wrong and are absolutely entitled to your UC.
The economy isn't working.

LadyWithLapdog · 07/01/2023 01:40

I’m shocked to read people need and receive such large sums of UC when earning above average wages. That means a small pool of people is contributing disproportionately. It’s all shit, for many of the reasons described by PP.

When my kids were in childcare - long before UC - we got round it by part-time work, both DH and I. This of course meant lower wages and lower pension contributions. There were several years when one salary went just on childcare.

SpringsRightAroundTheCorner · 07/01/2023 01:51

JungleJungle · 07/01/2023 01:04

I have a BSc and a masters and a PhD as well as two work funded diplomas. Don't see why that is relevant. I used to own my own house. I will never get married because I don't want to. I had a child with an abusive man through coercive control and sexual assault. It happens. My situation is not as you describe (unless you think it is?).

You left out your original post that you fled dv and your child was the result of an assault, your relative must know this so yes they are mean when they are aware of this. My post was aimed at the thousands of women on here chosing to have kids in unstable relationships without owning a house, they make that choice, you clearly didn't.

Mumwithbaggage · 07/01/2023 01:52

Shocking OP should have to eventually say she has degrees/PhD. Should it matter what she does? Whatever she did, it's a really bad state of affairs because the country and its systems have gone to shit. Some posters are just very very rude and up themselves.

CountZacular · 07/01/2023 01:58

SpringsRightAroundTheCorner · 07/01/2023 01:51

You left out your original post that you fled dv and your child was the result of an assault, your relative must know this so yes they are mean when they are aware of this. My post was aimed at the thousands of women on here chosing to have kids in unstable relationships without owning a house, they make that choice, you clearly didn't.

I really don’t see why owning a house has anything to do with anything. We do have a mortgage here (and have before DC). The steady increase of cost of living coupled with outrageous childcare costs is making it unsustainable. How could we have known our economy would tank like this? So if things continue in the same trajectory, we may have to abandon our home which would mean renting and likely qualifying for UC.

Known of the issues have anything to do with whether individuals own a fucking house or not and everything to do with high rents, high living costs and wages that just aren’t matching - and instead of a government tackling the real issues they just shove a quick plaster on it without providing real help.

CountZacular · 07/01/2023 01:59

None*

nettie434 · 07/01/2023 02:04

The lack of knowledge about average rents and childcare costs astonishes me. This is why your relative didn't understand how entitlement to Universal Credit work. It's not JungleJungle getting the benefit. It's the landlord and childcare provider.

There is no need to feel bad about yourself JungleJungle. Reading your posts, I admire you so much for achieving all those work based and academic qualifications, getting out of a coercive relationship, working full time as a lone parent and generally being a great role model for your child.

YerAWizardHarry · 07/01/2023 02:20

The benefits system allowed me to claw my way from poverty and being a teenage parent through my degree and into an established profession without a need to claim anything and owning my own home (all before turning 30- not many people WITHOUT children can claim the same).

Will forever be thankful that I wasn’t frogmarched to the abortion clinic or chucked onto the streets for my “poor decisions” or “bad choice of baby daddy”.

Kudos to you OP. Maybe your post will even have people learning they may be entitled to top ups, too.

Shauny098 · 07/01/2023 02:23

Antst · 07/01/2023 00:07

Boomers have taken it all. It's because they've consistently voted to pay less tax and to take our council houses at rock-bottom prices and to weaken worker protections that we're in the situation we're in, where so many people can't afford rent and other necessities.

That said, it makes me grind my teeth to read about women who are taking taxpayers' money when the father is not contributing. Why should I pay for your kids when I can't afford to have them?

Men don't magically turn into no-hopers after the baby is born and no one forces people to have children they can't look after. The father should be forced to pay his share--and not the pathetic amount that British men often get away with, but what it actually costs to raise a child. The UK has shocking rates of teen parenthood and of single parenthood. If we didn't pay for it, I bet there are woman out there who would make better decisions when picking the father.

Women absolutely can and do force men to become fathers when they don’t want to be. And don’t give me the argument of “well he should have wrapped up then”, when it’s 2 consenting adults consenting to (unprotected) sex only then the woman becomes pregnant and only she is the one who makes the decision as to wether or not they both become parents despite that man saying he’s not ready and does not want the child, she then goes on to claim benefits, instead of bashing men let’s bash those type of ppl! Also pp saying “we should garner men’s wages”, any man on PAYE will definitely have his wages garnered through a DOE order if he does not pay after the woman has made a claim through CMS, there’s no escaping it.

CavalierApproach · 07/01/2023 02:24

@SpringsRightAroundTheCorner Your tone is so bizarrely, pointlessly rude. Why on earth would the op have put those facts in her very first post? She didn’t “leave them out”. They weren’t remotely relevant to what she was posting about at that point. They have only come up because of later posts on the thread.

Although she did mention her situation in a later post, well before you chimed in with your poundshop Katie Hopkins rhetoric.

Odd too that you think her relative “must know” the deeply personal aspects of her situation Confused

amispeakingintongues · 07/01/2023 02:25

SpringsRightAroundTheCorner · 07/01/2023 00:56

Hmm I have 3 degrees, work ft and by the time I have paid my student loan, tax, ni and into a pension I'm only taking home £400 more than you on nearly 40k. I get 0 help with my costs (I have 3 kids) but I'm married. We live in a cheaper part of the country and saved for many years to buy a house with a large ltv so that the mortgage itself was very manageable.

It's a sad reality that so many people have children in rocky relationships before marriage and real commitment, not owning their own home and so people like us who spend years saving, establishing ourselves end up propping up people who could have done the same, saved, established themselves instead of diving in, having children and then realising actually this person is awful, oops I have children and now can't afford to live. You read it time and time again on here women having kids, unmarried early into a relationship. Piss poor planning I'm afraid. Don't worry though the state will prop you and your kids up and pay your childcare and rent costs, meanwhile we'll pay our own childcare and mortgage. It's annoying for anyone who doesn't expect handouts earning a similar amount.

Marriages do break down of course, a good friend of mine divorced last year, she's on 37k and couldn't get any help. She took over the mortgage and bought her husband out the house, so I'm quite surprised you get that. Her husband pays minimum child maintenance earning 60k, it isn't a lot though, certainly nowhere near your £800 a month. Maybe she shouldn't have got married and bought a house she'd probably be better off now living on a handout topup.

Self-righteous much?

What a horribly ignorant post.