To be upset about my mum’s attitude to the NHS?

[Beautifulblues]

She’s turning 64 this year and so has benefited from the NHS all of her life.

She came from a fairly poor background, council house, working class, she had to leave school at 16 to get a job as they needed to contribute to the household. She shared a bedroom with her siblings until she was 14, very little in the way of luxuries.

Despite all of that she’s now a staunch conservative and she has said several times recently that she believes the NHS is no longer fit for purpose and we should be looking towards a health insurance system like other countries (she referenced France here but I have no idea of their healthcare system). I’m feeling very angry about it…she’s benefitted this long but doesn’t want me or her 4 year old grandson to benefit from the wonderful NHS as he gets older.

I think people like your mum are actually old enough to compare the shitshow the nhs has become against what we used to have. I agree with your mum. I'm not aware of any other developed country with an aging population havjng an entirely free at point of use service. Additional tax won't solve the issues in the NHS.

What department of the NHS do you work in?

Where did you gain such insight?

What’s wrong with she’s said? You don’t don’t actually seem to have an argument against it, just a rant about your mum.

I am French and when I describe the state of the NHS to my family, they just can’t believe it. The French system is so much better and fair, as people on low income/unemployed/ with chronic conditions get 100% free treatment.

It’s also much simpler to see a doctor, you just book an appointment with a specialist and that’s it, no need to see a GP, exaggerate the condition so you definitely get a referral (which I’ve done before, as advised by another consultant and hospital!), wait to hear from the hospital, etc.

Virtually every woman has a gynaecologist (unless you don’t want to). I love living in the UK but I would give some much to have the same healthcare as in France.

The level is care is higher but also the comfort. No hospital wards anymore in France since the 1990s (but you can get a double room, with a shared bathroom). Most rooms are private rooms with your own bathroom. And you don’t share a bathroom with 4-6 different women after giving birth, you have your own (or share with one other lady).

I've got plenty of experience of the French healthcare system (it's fantastic) and I worked in the NHS for over 20 years. I agree with the OP's mother's view regarding the two systems. Am I also uneduated and just repeating something I've heard/read?

There's a reason outcomes are better in France...

@GPTec1 I agree the obvious problem is that the Government won’t spend money on the NHS (at least, this is one of the problems). It does pander. But I think that is because it knows its supporters.

Labour have been out of power for 13 years and did much, much better on the NHS but have something big to answer for in terms of PFI. Unfortunately the Tories maximised this, even while driving the NHS into the ground. Polls still regularly show that the Tories are more trusted on the economy overall. Incredible.

@StrawberryShortcake01 I'm actually not remotely a Tory but I do think we need to take a good hard look at how other systems operate. France has a similar population- Germany even higher - just saying our marvellous NHS no longer stands sadly- I don't know if it's lack of money or investment, management, lack of social care, problems at GP level or the fact we have a population where very large numbers of people currently seem to be in the grips of chronic illness- but whatever it is , we've got to examine why other systems are working better without simply dismissing the idea- Britain isn't always best and we don't have to go down the US kind of system either

France and Germany spend more per capita than the UK on healthcare. The idea that we can have the French system with the current level of spending is pie in the sky.

You say we don't have to have the US system, but that's where we're heading. The Tories want it, and Labour are too scared to have a sensible conversation about alternatives.

@poetryandwine PFI is a difficult one, the 2 alternatives to PFI were to build up high levels of national debt (and where would that have left us if they'd done when we needed to borrow for the financial crash and then Furlough?) OR not build, again, leaving the NHS in even more of a mess, just imagine if those hospitals build under PFI didn't exist now?

Yes after Truss and BJ, amazing the Tories score highly on the economy, though hasn't that changed recently?

PFI debt is still public debt. Technically it doesn't appear on the UK's balance sheet but it is backed by the UK government and therefore UK PLC is on the hook should the individual public institution fail.

Add to that, no organisation can borrow at lower rates than the government and it is just another way to allow private companies to skim money off the UK public sector.

Actually I really like the French system. What frightens me, though, is that the Tories are exploring options with US pharma and show no interest in the European systems at all.

Same place as she got her insight into academia. The VCs may hage huge wages; hardly anyone else does.

In today’s Observer, the article Crisis: Why our health system is falling apart quotes the following statistic from the OECD. France has 5.7 hospital beds per 1000 people, the average OECD member country has 5 beds, and the UK has 2.4 beds.

So our bed-blocking crisis is built on a base where we have less than half the hospital beds of the average First World country to begin with

@WiseUpJanetWeiss I don't disagree- having moved back from Copenhagen earlier this year it's 46% tax- (mind you no NI or council tax and very cheap childcare) -healthcare is good but they don't stand for nonsense- and certainly don't over prescribe- you can't actually find many drugs over the counter either. They are very into preventative health- mind you they still drink and smoke and eat a lot of fatty food- but they do cycle and run a lot- go figure!!

I wish we could get this message out much louder and clearer to the general public. I want any journalist or news presenter to hammer any Tory minister they interview with this statistic and demand to know why it is!

Can anyone, anywhere, show evidence that the Tories want a US system? Even if they did, who would vote for it? The commons, inc. Tory MP's, nor the Lords would pass it. It's a red herring. We need change. No-one has the balls to do it. Labour's answer still seems to be following the same trajectory as the Tories. Tinker round the edges, use the private sector more.

It’s happening by stealth, @KnittedCardi

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/07/public-nhs-the-new-health-and-care-bill-alarm-bells-privatisation

No-one needs to vote for it.

It is already happening by stealth. More and more people will take out private health insurance. More and more employers will provide private cover as a "perk" (but really it's in the interests of keeping their employees working and not off sick). The NHS will offer fewer and fewer services.

None of this needs votes in parliament. It's the do nothing option, and the insurance companies and the shareholders win.

Private insurance is ok but NHS covers much more so you can’t just rely on it here

We have both but mostly use NHS anyway (not that it’s frequent)

And how will these beautiful private hospitals be staffed? We are 50,000 nurses short. More nurses will leave and less will train if the pay doesn't improve. I am a qualified nurse with 25 years experience 7 of which at a private hospital..as I'm sure many nurses reading will agree private hospitals are not the Shangri-la the public imagine. They have many problems and risks of their own.

Tell me you’ve no experience of the NHS without saying the words lol

I don’t really have a personal view on this as my experience of the NHS is limited to GPs, but my friend works for the NHS and he says a lot of money is wasted on agency staff due to staff ‘sickness’, and that’s extremely difficult to remive non-performing staff.

Why is it any different managing non-performance in the NHS compared to any other business. Does he say? Because NHS workers don't have any special rights.

I work with the NHS and there are no reasons why bad performance can't be identified and rooted out. The problem is a lack of managers and admin staff to facilitate disciplinary and performance reviews. There are gaps absolutely everywhere throughout the service because workers are leaving the NHS in droves.

I agree with your mum. The NHS isn’t fit for purpose.

You are not going to benefit from the wonderful NHS. I know I haven’t.

Too many times it has nearly cost me my life. And has cost me the life of people I am close to.

The NHS muddies the waters and you mess around with their appointments where you can only discuss one symptom at a time even though a combination of certain symptoms can mean a diagnosis that needs an urgent diagnosis.

The NHS has the money it chooses to waste so much on trying to avoid spending money on tests and putting people off to make more and more appointments to the point that if tests had been carried out months before the results would have led to minor surgery rather than huge complicated surgery and months in hospiyal

Come back and tell me how great the nhs is when you have had to pay for cancer treatment that runs into 6 figures because the gps wouldn’t test or bowel cancer for 6 months

I'm a pensioner, although I've never voted Tory and didn't vote for Brexit.

Its beyond doubt that the NHS, and social care, both need root and branch reform. Both are a complete mess, and an expensive one at that.

At the moment, despite the extra billions lobbed at it, it's not serving patients or staff well.🙁

Best idea would a cross-party commission to look at the whole thing, and to start to change some things.