To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

[Saysomething1234]

This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC

We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this

Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness

How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement?

We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot.

AIBU?

Totally agree that it's the moral thing to do and I'm so relieved that on this one at least, Britain's self-interest coincides with being on the moral side of the argument.

Yes, that's worked out pretty well.

It's also one of the main reasons that Russian attempts to influence people in the West via social media have failed so hard on this occasion. Because it's so very obvious that there's no option available that involves ignoring Russia and carrying on as normal, and that the best option for us is to give the Ukrainians resources to fight Russia themselves.

When the histories of this war are eventually written, the way in which ordinary people have responded to the inept troll farmers is going to be one of the more historically unique and interesting discussions.

Am I being unreasonable to think that we can't afford a 5% permanent reduction in GDP and an annual reduction in tax revenues of £40bn any more?

@Saysomething1234 believe me, badges are not necessary.

the logic to seek a negotiated solution that doesnt bankrupt up does not make sense to you. it does to a third of the voting population here because wars are not black and white wrong or right.

This is a conflict which has been brewing for a decade and no party is completely in the right or wrong. So the emphasis on diplomacy/negotiated settlement would have been far better for everyone rather than the hawkish tendencies being fed everywhere.

If you believe Russia (with largest nuclear weapon stockpile in the world) is going to roll over and say "awwww shucks dude, we lost" - you are delusional beyond belief

'Voting population'. Dear me.

@Saysomething1234 this conflict had been brewing for a heck of a lot longer than 10 years.

right. at least you are not shy to admit your open discrimination/cancelling of anyone who voted for brexit. i respect you for that honesty. you could have bs'ed that.

I'm trying to think of any point in history when appeasement of an aggressor has ever worked out in the long term.

While you're at it - also try to think of the last time when an aggressive, large nuclear armed state (in this case Russia) lost a war it staked its future/domestic rhetoric on

Your concerns are not being 'cancelled', your previous choices are being judged in the context of the complete dogs dinner that you and your fellow quitters have left us in. Feel free to extoll your concerns to your hearts content, nobody is stopping you, but don't be entirely surprised if your arguments do not gain traction with an increasing majority of people who now see Brexit as nothing more then a massive mistake.

Clearly trying to find a compromise solution over Crimea and the talk of 'needing to improve relations with Russia' failed miserably, not only for Ukraine but for places like Syria, Venezuela, Sudan, CAR and, er, Somerset.

OK, your turn. When has appeasement ever worked?

Sorry - in response to @Saysomething1234 at 11.27.

First Chechen War, Soviet–Afghan War before that?

Actually I lie. 1999.

Oh hang on and I was only looking at conflicts between two nuclear powers.

This is fun! Any advances on the Kargil war?

('We're scared of their bombs so ultimately we should give them whatever they want' is an... interesting approach.)

This is like taking candy from a baby, honestly.

Putin is provoked by weakness. A stronger response to his invasion of Crimea

@Saysomething1234 what discrimination?! You won the referendum, the Brexit referendum leadership has been in charge of the country since 2016, and you’re still whinging about it?! I’m so baffled by this victim mentality of brexiteers. Your side won, it turned out to all be bullshit and it’s going to fuck over the poorest in society the worst (the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg however have made millions betting on the UK economy tanking).

I am also in no way surprised you are deflecting onto Brexit because you have been unable to seriously answer any questions asked of you in this thread.

Get off your soapbox and look around; you’re wrong at every turn on this. Every single time your arguments get dismantled you move onto something else.

By my count you’ve now tried:

• We can’t afford to help them as a country
• You pay lots of tax and you don’t want it to go there
• Ukraine is a kleptocracy
• Also nazis
• It’ll take us too long to diversify the energy market
• Russia is too strong and will win anyway
• The west is hypocritical because it’s invaded places before
• Not everyone who is against Ukraine is a bot
• Discrimination against brexiteers?!

This is literally, literally the narrative playbook of the Kremlin. I think it’s time we called you out as either very easily influenced or a troll. I am really struggling to believe you are a real person at this point.

I just want to point out that 52% of the population of UK did NOT vote for Brexit.
72% of registered electorate voted -17 mil for Brexit.
That's below third of population.

@Tukmgru to your points

We can’t afford to help them as a country - YES WE CANNOT BECAUSE WE DONT HAVE THE MONEY. WE ARE LIVING BEYOND OUR MEANS ALREADY
You pay lots of tax and you don’t want it to go there - YES I DO. DEAL WITH IT
Ukraine is a kleptocracy - I SAID LEADERS ON BOTH SIDES ARE LIKELY LINING POCKETS. NOTHING TO SEE HERE, DEAR
Also nazis - I NEVER MENTIONED NAZIS
It’ll take us too long to diversify the energy market - PRACTICAL REALITY OF SETTING UP NEW PROJECTS, TRANSITIONING ENERGY SOURCES
Russia is too strong and will win anyway - YES NUCLEAR POWER MEANS THEY WILL NOT ROLL OVER
The west is hypocritical because it’s invaded places before - AND YOUR POINT IS?
Not everyone who is against Ukraine is a bot - AND YOUR POINT IS?
Discrimination against brexiteers?! - SEVERAL POSTERS SAID I DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ARGUE BECAUSE OF MY BREXIT VOTE. WHATS YOUR POINT?

There are people here who are happy to play video game geopolitics from the comfort of their home happy to be at war against a nuclear armed russia.

and 31% of people disagree with you. I saw a previous thread on the same topic a few months ago at 16%. maybe by the summer sanity will prevail across the majority

It's Orthodox Christmas tomorrow, isn't it? Sounds like someone's started early.

Jesus wept!

Having grown up and lived through the Northern Ireland Troubles, let me explain the differences between us and Ukraine.

Northern Ireland wasn't invaded at all. The Northern Ireland Government in 1969 requested the aid of the British Army as the RUC was close to collapse due to exhaustion.

Ukraine, on the other hand, WAS invaded by an aggressive country with tanks, hundreds of thousands of soldiers, missiles launched at Ukrainian territory including civilians.

Already that highlights how utterly ridiculous it was for you to attempt to compare Northern Ireland's Troubles with the war in Ukraine.

Northern Ireland's people weren't successfully terrorised by Republican and Loyalist terrorists in any serious numbers. Over 38 years, a little over 4,000 people died. Hence, we and the Security Forces could easily absorb their campaign of murder.

Ukraine, in sharp contrast, has a much higher death toll in less than a year according to the UN:

"From 24 February to 4 December 2022, OHCHR recorded 17,181 civilian casualties in Ukraine: 6,702 killed and 10,479 injured."

Northern Ireland was NOT a war by any means. It was a low level terrorist murderous campaign that ultimately failed.

Ukraine IS a war by every measure going.

In Northern Ireland, we could go to school and people could go to work without much problem. In Ukraine, normal life cannot go on due to the aggression of Russia and their missiles, for example.

We could live a normal life in Northern Ireland for the most part.

Given all the above, we in Northern Ireland could have referendums in 1973 and 1998 where people could cast their vote unmolested in the secrecy of the ballot box. People very largely stayed where they always lived with small numbers of exceptions and even then they almost all stayed in Northern Ireland. My own family have lived in a town in North Down for at least 150 years.

Compare this with the sight of Ukrainians leaving for numerous European countries due to the devastation of the war Russia forced onto them.

It's painfully obvious why a referendum in Ukraine on territorial integrity and independence could NOT take place in a way that satisfies international law.

Referendums in Northern Ireland were and are fully compliant with international law.

Please, don't make such ridiculous, baseless and sensationalist comparisons between the Northern Ireland Troubles and the war in Ukraine as forced on the people by Putin's Russia.

It's offensive to us and the Ukrainians. Not to mention utterly bollocks!

I just want to point out that 52% of the population of UK did NOT vote for Brexit.
72% of registered electorate voted -17 mil for Brexit.
That's below third of population

I just want to point out that the 28% who cba to vote at all, tacitly agreed to accept the result, whichever way it went!
People were asked a question re Brexit, and answered the best they could with the information they had available at the time. Many felt the EU was too big, too inefficient, unwieldy, resistant to change and filled with useless failed politicians on a gravy train. And that it also gave our own politicians a useful place to hide. All that is still true! In leaving, there was a hope for greater accountability. Where brexiteers went wrong was in trusting that the people we had elected to represent us, had a plan and knew what they were doing.

To say that people who voted Brexit have no right to object to further mismanagement of the country ever again, is pretty disgusting. To the poster who said that, let's hope you manage to go through life being perfect.

I just want to point out that the 28% who cba to vote at all, tacitly agreed to accept the result, whichever way it went!

Even if we accepted this sweeping statement as fact, it doesn't actually affect the point made. Which is that if it's important enough to talk about the percentage of people in the UK who voted for Brexit, it's important enough to get the stat correct.