To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

[Saysomething1234]

This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC

We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this

Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness

How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement?

We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot.

AIBU?

People on low incomes are the ones who give the highest percentage of their income to tax.
Council tax for eg is as much as 20% of take-home minimum wage in many parts of the country.

They're probably pretty bothered about all of this stuff same as everyone else.

Perhaps you should employ a better accountant.

I think we can all agree that @Saysomething1234 has absolutely no interest in genuine discussion and that this entire thread was started for no other reason than to spread disinformation and hate. Thanks though to all the posters with their very interesting and knowledgeable posts on issues such as energy.

The money were are spending on Ukraine wouldn't make one iota of difference to the NHS.

It may however just help to stop Russian aggression. You let Putin win and this is only the start. Eventually someone will drop Putin especially given that Russian billionaires seem to be having a LOT of not suspicious at all fatal accidents but in the meantime we have to support them.

He should really take a leaf out of that humble lad Putin's book and only live off his modest state salary.

@Saysomething1234
So basically what your saying is Russia should have faced no sanction, nothing at all.

So now he goes into Moldova, can't do any, need cheap gas... following year, he walks into the Baltic states, that wont trigger art5 because we need cheap gas.

By your logic, we would allow Putin to reform the USSR.

Give him half of Germany too. That worked super well last time.

I was sort of hoping that one of the lessons of 2022 might have been that concentrating control of vital resources in the hands of undemocratic and potentially hostile powers might not be the most clever idea. But some on this thread seem to be much more in the 'for god's sake don't rock the boat, better give him a lot of food supplies too to keep him happy' boat still.

@Saysomething1234 i love that you complain about a perceived humblebrag here, and then in your very next post state how much you pay in tax (and thus how much you earn) as your main motivator for wanting to let Russia steamroll Ukraine.

You’ve been caught out so many times on this thread it’s getting a bit silly now. Not one of your arguments have held up to scrutiny, but you’re still trying to make it seem as though you’re reasonable.

If you have no intention of changing your mind, why come on here? You asked if you are being unreasonable - the evidence goes very much towards yes you are, but you can’t accept that you might be wrong?

How about it plainer terms; I pay, in all likelihood, the same or more tax than you do, and this is apparently what you care about. If some of my money goes to pushing back the Kremlin’s butchery then it is money far better spent than on idiocies like Brexit, or Ministerial salaries, or PPE that wasn’t up to scratch. Ok? Ok.

It is interesting that as a Brexiteer Saysomething1234 seems completely unwilling to acknowledge that the financial cost of that decision and the subsequent actions of the Tories utterly dwarfs any aid going Ukraine's way.

Oh I think we all know you're working...

@Tukmgru No my view has not changed at all and if anything this thread shows the inability of most people to see this for what it is. An unmitigated waste of money, the usual black/white - good/bad narrative winning out without nuance and I would not be surprised if the only ones coming out better are Putin/Zelensky/their cronies who siphon money off from all of this. You are naive to think wars like this are about principles anymore. Wars in the modern would are about feeding war machines and the companies/interests that benefit from them. The garbage about energy costs not being subsidies on this thread are ridiculous and written by those who dont understand sovereign spending. We have nothing to feed our desires to right the wrongs in the world, this is an economy in decline and the country is going to the dogs, we arent the saviors of the world. Trying spending some time in the poor areas of UK (expanding rapidly) - it is not pretty. We need to prioritize our country and stop wasteful adventures abroad justified by stories about poetic justice and morals and manufactured comparisons with the past.

@DanseAvecLesLoups just the same way UK's disastrous invasions into Afghanistan/Iraq doesnt stop you from sitting on a moral high horse about invading another country (eg Ukraine), my Brexit vote does not take away my right to question this spending

Have you got kids @Saysomething1234

Relevance?

@Saysomething1234

What do you think the UK should have done? and why would we have had spent lesson energy support? how would you have deterred Putin from further expansionism?

Apologises if you ve already told us, i ve missed that.

Just thinking that we all pay taxes towards something we don't use.
Like I am childfree and can't even vote, but happily pay taxes to be used at schools, etc.

Just since you are going on about "paying taxes". It's nothing special.

I think you need to make yourself aware of the bigger issues at play here. This isn't an isolated country the other side of the world. This conflict has huge implications for the security of the whole of Europe. Put simply, we have no choice but to support Ukraine, who are bearing the brunt of a situation that we have helped to create and has enormous consequences for us all if we get it wrong. So no. We can't afford to, but neither can we afford not to.

Interesting, because it shows how little you've engaged with the thread. There's been relatively little of the good/evil - much, much more discussion around pragmatic issues such as national security and what's in our own national interest, the future of geopolitics and the best options to get the best possible outcomes for the UK in the circumstances. It's been a much more honest and nakedly self-interested thread than many I've seen on Ukraine, including discussions of the trade offs between support for a regime that certainly isn't squeaky clean but is better than the alternative (in my view, others have disagreed.)

However, I'm so interested that you keep misrepresenting what people have said on energy. Why is that? Is it intentional, or is it honestly that you don't understand?

No one has said that the EPG or other energy interventions aren't subsidies. What they've said is that the energy costs, and therefore the need for the subsidies, would exist regardless of whether or not we support Ukraine, so they're not relevant to your argument that ceasing our support for Ukraine would get rid of high European gas prices and thus the need for domestic energy subsidies. Your contention that domestic energy subsidies are indirect support for Ukraine is factually incorrect.

Almost like there's a script.

@Saysomething1234 this is close to farce. Of course war is bad and there is nuance in the world. It’s interesting that you can’t see it; unwarranted adventurism in the Middle East is not equal to supporting a democracy defend itself from invasion. Yes, in an ideal world we wouldn’t need to, but this world - alas - has Putin in it.

I live in one of those deprived areas you speak of (I doubt you do) - the neglect is down to successive government and local government policy. We have the money as a country, we choose to elect politicians who won’t spend it to help people in poverty. That isn’t the fault of the Ukrainians (indeed, it isn’t the fault of the Russian conscripts who weren’t even told where they were invading and I’m sure would rather be at home than fighting for Putin’s arrogance). We could very easily use the money available to us to fund both, in fact.

I love this ‘we should help our own first’ mentality. We do. Of course we do, look at the budget FFS. But it’s an easy stick to use in an argument by those unable to think for themselves.

Moreover, the stance one takes personally is about principles. Forget the county level stuff, forget the governments and their foreign policy if you like. Where you stand, or where I stand, on these things are up to us, and they define our character. So where do you stand? With the foreign adventurer Proto-fascist dictator invading a neighbouring country, or with the country that is being invaded?

Have you ever been to Ukraine? I have. Whatever its flaws, it was dealing with them, and there was real hope and optimism in a lot of the country post 2014 as the majority wanted to move towards a more stable, European style democracy - and they were getting there. That’s why Putin invaded. No other reason, other than he doesn’t believe they have a right to choose their future. So again, who do you stand with? It IS binary in this circumstance, if not in others.

Saysomething1234

You accuse people of binary thinking and lacking nuance despite the many posts on this thread that have explored in some detail the geo politics, energy markets, history and other issues surrounding this conflict. It is also entirely possible to have been against this country's invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, support for Saudi Arabia, bombing Libya etc AND be disgusted with Putin's actions in Ukraine. Being against the latter does not mean I was for the former. For all your talk of nuance you have been the biggest proponent in whataboutism here as if the shitty actions by the west in the past somehow excuses the actions of Russia now rather then see them all as 'bad'. Most people here are not naive enough to think this war is being fought on purely humanitarian grounds although I am happy to take that as a huge benefit. Of course there is skin in the game from vested interests who want to see a geopolitical advantage (an economically and militarily diminished Russia and an in check China), post war reconstruction deals and arms contracts as NATO re equips itself after decades of defence cuts and failing to meet its 2% military spending. You lament this country 'going to the dogs' yet to refuse accept that your decision to vote leave (and vote Tory?) has directly contributed to our increasingly diminished state over the last decade. At least own that.

And lots of UK companies will benefit from that....if Brexit hasn't scuppered the UK being allowed to tender.

You voted brexit (assuming you're even british), so I'm afraid your right for anyone to give a shit about your economic complaints are revoked in perpetuity.

@JassyRadlett one of the reasons that the thread has focused on the tangible benefits to the UK of helping the Ukraine is because the false premise in the OP is that it's a waste of money to help.

It's quite clearly the right thing to do as well being in our own interests. Having lost the argument about the practical benefits to the UK the OP is now pretending that only moral arguments apply. Unable really to argue that Russia is in the right (because they so blatantly aren't) they resort to calling people hypocrites because of Iraq (even though they probably didn't even support that war)

My opinion. The UK government has made foreign policy mistakes in the past. Let's not compound those mistakes by supporting an evil dictator against a European democracy and alienating all our allies.

None of the arguments made by the OP make any sense.

It's quite clearly the right thing to do as well being in our own interests. Having lost the argument about the practical benefits to the UK the OP is now pretending that only moral arguments apply. Unable really to argue that Russia is in the right (because they so blatantly aren't) they resort to calling people hypocrites because of Iraq (even though they probably didn't even support that war)

Totally agree that it's the moral thing to do and I'm so relieved that on this one at least, Britain's self-interest coincides with being on the moral side of the argument.

I had close friends on MH17; I'd practically given up hope that any sort of action would ever be taken against Putin.

Thanks for cancelling any future concerns of 52% of the population of this country because they voted for Brexit. would you like us all to wear badges so you can discriminate against brexit voters more easily?