To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

[Saysomething1234]

This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC

We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this

Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness

How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement?

We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot.

AIBU?

So we should invade Russia?
Because it does sound you are quite excusing invasion by "but there are neonazis".
Actually should everyone invade everyone then?

I think you are on a bit of a wind up here tbh

Putin certainly wouldn't but he's a madman. Zelensky seems happy to do whatever will send money to Ukraine and get him on TV.

Well even by your logic, this idea is dead in the water then.

TBH i don't know why you even mentioned it.

Just to put OP's claim into context. @Saysomething1234

UK direct tax receipts last year were £715Bn. This is most forms of taxation, but excludes local authority receipts such as Council Tax and Business Rates, which are on top. This tax collection is equivalent to just under £2Bn per day.

By most accounts, the UK has funded Ukraine £7Bn throughout 2022. In other words, the UK funding of Ukraine was equivalent to just 3.5 days of tax receipts.

On that basis, I hope we have continued into 2023 at least at the same rate because by midday yesterday HMRC have already earned enough to replenish the investment in Ukraine. The next 360 days of 2023 are tax-freedom days.

The real question @Saysomething1234 is whether we are really investing enough in Ukraine to defeat the modern Russian empire?

I suggest we are not. If we want democracy and the freedom to live by Western standards and pay taxes then we have to invest more and defeat Russia, resoundly, within the next 6 months.

Thank you for reminding me why we must never give up on Ukraine.

I am still very much at aw that someone basically wants to repeat Sudetland but pretend it was all will of people in some referendum.
Followed by Protectorate of Ukraine?

Do tell me how many civilians the Ukrainians have shot in cold blood. You know, not by mistake or as collateral damage, but dragged into the street, bound and gagged like the ones the Russians massacred in Bucha.

You disgust me. I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

I think you are on a bit of a wind up here tbh

And I think you might be having a hard time reading. You seem to be reading some posts and then making your own mental leaps and thinking they said what you imagined. Let me help you:

I think no-one should have invaded anyone. I think Neo-Nazis are bad, in Russia and in Ukraine. I think funding and arming them is particularly foolish. I think Ukraine is a breakaway state that turned around and attacked its own breakaway provinces when they wanted to return to Russia. I think that invading Ukraine was an absolute legal and moral violation.

Does it confuse you that people might be able to hold opinions that differ from what you watched on MSNBC or read in the Guardian?

I don't think I am the problem considering more people understood your posts like I did

Called it pages ago.

Well said!

I think @Hont1986 is on some sort wind up, dry jan boredom?

Definitely not Dry January, Hont has clearly been drinking something strong.

Do tell me how many civilians the Ukrainians have shot in cold blood.

Maybe you should ask the family of Daria Dugina.

Not shedding any tears over her here.

Shot by Russian security services, whats your point?

Not shedding any tears over her here.

So you don't actually care about the murder of civilians then, just the ones you happen to agree with. You should see if the Azov Battalion is hiring.

Shot by Russian security services, whats your point?

She wasn't shot? She was assassinated, in a car bomb planted by Ukrainian actors.

Imagine actually believing that.

Strongly suspected by Russians.. in order to gain support for the forthcoming mobilisation.

Either it is not an equivalence to what Russia has done in Ukraine.

Imagine actually believing that.

US intelligence, well-known ally of Russia, happens to believe it too.

Saying that Jews have dual loyalty, and a Jew can't be truly Ukrainian because of their Jewishness, is ok though? Because that's what the deleted posts were saying.

Literally no one is denying the existence of neo-Nazi elements in the Ukrainian military. For my own view, I certainly don't think Ukraine is above reproach, I really doubt the claimed denazification of the Azov regiment and think incorporating it into the national guard was the wrong move.

Do I think however that it justifies the Russian invasion? No. Do I think it's a good reason to throw Ukraine to the wolves, despite supporting Ukraine being in our own national interest? Also no.

I look at which of the combatants has a Chief Rabbi who has had to go into an exile, which one shit down the local branch of the Jewish Agency, that is actively and openly supporting and endorsing groups such as Ruskii Obraz, the Night Wolves, the Rusich Task Force and the Wagner group. And I look at the other combatant which I think made the wrong call on Azov (but at least the rhetoric seems to have been toned down) but also saw a Jewish Ukrainian elected President with more than 70% of the vote.

And I think that, while it's right to call out neo-Nazi elements in the Ukrainian military, simultaneously staying silent about the anti-Semitic and openly neo-Nazi groups getting open endorsement from the Kremlin is problematic.

Saying that Jews have dual loyalty, and a Jew can't be truly Ukrainian because of their Jewishness, is ok though? Because that's what the deleted posts were saying.

I don't know what any other posts were saying but I can assure you that my deleted posts said nothing of the sort. In fact I call on MNHQ to check the logs and ban my account if there is even a single hint of me posting something like that. They won't be able to, because it didn't happen.

I'm happy to post what I posted before. Here it is: denying the presence of Nazism in Ukraine is anti-Semitic. (It's anti-Semitic to do the same for Russia too, let me save your keyboard a little wear and tear). Telling Jewish people that the army of people with the SS logo on their uniform and the swastika flag flying from their HQ are actually the good guys, yeah if you do that, you are supporting anti-Semitism. I am happy to explain to you again, and again, if needed.

Cost of energy subsidies is close to £200b. That’s nearly 25% of our tax receipts down the drain as a result of a second order effect from this conflict due to energy prices through the roof. I’ve said this multiple times in the thread. Pl read it.

thats not enough to care?

simultaneously staying silent about the anti-Semitic [groups in Russia]

I am also aghast that they exist too. I condemn them too (classic whataboutism, by the way). But my country isn't funding and arming those groups, and then turning around and telling me that they're the good guys really. No, they are not the good guys., They are the evil guys, fighting the other evil guys.

I think Ukraine is a breakaway state that turned around and attacked its own breakaway provinces when they wanted to return to Russia.

Aaand we're back. A 'breakaway state'. One with its own language and identity that saw it declared its independence back in 1917, that has survived centuries of efforts to eradicate it under the Tsars and then through the Russification programme, one with its own culture and strong national identity despite the efforts of Stalin to kill the idea of Ukraine, one with a capital that was a thriving city while Moscow was still a forest. One that at the breakup of the Soviet Union voted strongly for independence from Russia - including those eastern provinces. The Ukrainian SSR was always a separate entity from Russia, so there is no suggestion of it 'breaking away' - the Soviet Union collapsed, and the republics decided what to do next.

Feel similar about Latvia and Estonia, do you?

All of Ukraine?

I'm sure they've told you all about it.