To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

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This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC

We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this

Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness

How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement?

We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot.

AIBU?

I think if you're looking for a military anywhere in the world that doesn't have far right wing elements, you're going to be looking for a hugely long time. What matters is what the system in that place does about it - does it embrace it and promote it as official policy, or does it try to bring those individuals and groups under more moderate control and direction.

(not whataboutery when it's literally the other combatant in a two-combatant war and you're only focusing on one of them.)

But given your ahistorical nonsense about whether Ukraine is valid as an independent state, this feels like something of a smokescreen for your abhorrent and biased views about Ukraine as a whole.

All of Ukraine?

You're going to have to elaborate more, I don't understand what part of the post you quoted that pertains to.

I'm sure they've told you all about it.

No, they didn't tell me, they told the New York Times. Another well-known Russian mouthpiece, I'm sure you'll agree.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darya_Dugina#US_intelligence_assessment

You're going to have to elaborate more, I don't understand what part of the post you quoted that pertains to.

This part:

They are the evil guys, fighting the other evil guys.

The NYT have certainly had their Russia licking moments, yes. Them having printed one unverified claim means fuck all, really.

Don't get me wrong, Dugina was a piece of shit whose death is amusing. It would be joyful to think Ukraine were actually capable of picking off well connected fascists in Moscow at will. It's just not very likely. Alas.

I still don't believe you're in good faith btw, but this topic is interesting.

But given your ahistorical nonsense about whether Ukraine is valid as an independent state, this feels like something of a smokescreen for your abhorrent and biased views about Ukraine as a whole.

Nothing ahistorical about it. Ukraine has only been an independent state for thirty years, and the Donbas has been trying to break away from that for about ten. It is somewhat linguistically and culturally distinct (less so towards the east) but that isn't the only marker of an independent country - you could say the same about Cornwall, Catalonia, or Southern USA.

But arguments about validity are pointless - the fact is that Ukraine is now an independent country. I've never said otherwise.

The death of Dugina is of zero equivalence to what Russia continues to do.

Like i ve said to others... show me the UA tanks and troops in Russian cities? show us the flattened Russian cities, the 14m refugees....mass graves.. the raped and tortured?

They are the evil guys, fighting the other evil guys.

Oh, I see. That was referring to the Azov Battalion and other neo-Nazi Ukrainian forces fighting the Task Force Rusich and other neo-Nazi Russian forces.

Subsidies are not down the drain. Money goes round in a circle, several times. The cost of energy was already rising before February 2024 and so was inflation and mostly to do with economies restarting post Covid and certain age groups not wanting to contribute further to maintain supply but still demanding to consume. Basic economics lesson.

You still do not deal with the main issue which is what price freedom. That is what I care about.

I think you are a Russian shrill to be honest.

Dugina, a nazi, wasn't killed by Ukrainians though.

Nothing ahistorical about it. Ukraine has only been an independent state for thirty years, and the Donbas has been trying to break away from that for about ten. It is somewhat linguistically and culturally distinct (less so towards the east) but that isn't the only marker of an independent country - you could say the same about Cornwall, Catalonia, or Southern USA.

You described it as a 'breakaway state' from Russia, with provinces trying to 'return to Russia', implying that it was Russian to start with rather than a separate entity within the USSR. It's nonsense.

The Donbas has been 'trying to break away' through Russian sponsored paramilitaries, not through any widespread political process.

Them having printed one unverified claim means fuck all, really.

The New York Times believes it. the CIA believes it, but hey, SirMingeALot on Mumsnet doesn't believe it.

We paid £200b more in subsidies for energy - did it fall off a magic tree? Seriously the lack of education is baffling

Right. Assuming you are correct, that then means their presence in the Ukrainian military leads you to think that the invasion of Ukraine by Russia should be ignored or tacitly supported through lack of support for our ally?

Again, my lovely, you need to catch up with the fact that Liz Truss is no longer prime minister, the energy price guarantee and other subsidies have changed significantly, the windfall tax (the windfalls being a result of the Russian invasion pushing up gas an electricity prices) has been extended and the stabilisation of the gas markets mean that current forward projections of subsidies are much lower than they were in September.

Unproven at best... but incomparable to what you and your mates have been doing to the Ukrainians.

You have no idea whether the CIA believe it.

I'm glad you brought Daria Dugina's violent death up though. Bad faith or not, it's one we can all enjoy.

Speaking of which, have you done any reading about Afghanistan pre 2001 yet? They need to bring in bot CPD, the standards are through the floor.

What’s the number according to you if it is not £200b?

"look..squirrel"

Sorry was busy working and paying taxes to fund your favourite war

Economics is not your strong point, clearly. You simply have no idea how money flows. You allude to 'magic money trees' yet seem to think that subsidies is money piled up on a bonfire and set alight. No magic money trees! So the corollary is no bonfires!

Listen - Money goes from A to B. Then it goes from B to C. Then C to D. That is how money works. Nobody in the middle burns it or makes it disappear.

Oh and an education would have told you it is £200Bn or £200bn. Not £200b.

I repeat. The investment in Ukraine is 3.5 days of UK tax revenue. It will pay us back in spades. What price if Ukraine is left to fail? The Baltics? Germany?

Your geo-political ignorance is clear and obvious.

Right. So energy prices going up a lot didn’t cost the UK anything. Super.

Thanks for clarifying that. The country really needs to stop worrying about inconsequential things.

I’m glad I interacted with your highness of little knowledge and incredible arrogance

No. Russian imperialist expansionism will be outfought, outpartnered and outspent. On all fronts. Take that back to the Kremlin troll farm.

Not according to me at all.

Try Cornwall Insight, the most respected energy analysts in the business. In their words: 'Despite the drop in the price cap, the overall cost to the government of the EPG for the period to 31 March 2024 is still a predicted £37bn, money which will need to be recovered through the taxpayer.'

This is in large part because from April the EPG threshold rises to £3000 (under Sunak/Hunt's changes) and the price cap is now predicted to be below that level, thanks to lower wholesale prices.

Info here

Cornwall were the people who last September put the upward limit in 'extreme' circumstances of the EPG as being £140bn (they had the lower end at £70bn) under the Truss/Kwarteng plan and with the forward prices we were looking at in October.

The business scheme has undergone similar recalibration, but was always a smaller sum (OBR predicted £20bn to March 2023, support will taper off after that.)

Stay off the vodka. It does not suit you.