To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

[Saysomething1234]

This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC

We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this

Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness

How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement?

We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot.

AIBU?

@Hont1986 don't be silly. Of course you can't hold a fair referendum in a war torn country where civilians have been murdered and terrorised by an invading force and huge numbers have fled.

You're really crap at this. It's adorable watching bots try over and over again.

Did that come out of your script, Bot? I hope Vlad paid you well for that attempt.

Of course you can't hold a fair referendum in a war torn country where civilians have been murdered and terrorised by an invading force and huge numbers have fled.

So you don't think the Good Friday Agreement referendum was a good idea, then?

Bless you. So little knowledge, but so much time to spout silly things.

Any answers to the questions posed? Any reason to think Russia would respect the votes if they didn't go Russia's way. Any view on how to ensure the forced refugees get a fair say? Any ideas on how to prevent ethnic cleansing in the run up? Thoughts on how to prevent coercion and violence during polling. particularly given the number of Ukrainians who have been disappeared into Russia? Any thoughts on the long-term impact on the world order?

Any thoughts on the concept of national sovereignty?

any thoughts on national debt/budget deficits/austerity/spending choices?

oh sorry that must be my bot side coming out now 🙄

Any reason to think Russia would respect the votes if they didn't go Russia's way.

The referendum would be publicly supported by both countries' governments and declared by them ahead of time to be binding. The remaining Ukrainian regions would be adopted into NATO.

Any view on how to ensure the forced refugees get a fair say?

Refugees don't get a say, you have to be living there to get a say in a referendum. Scottish people living in England didn't get a say in the independence referendum.

Any ideas on how to prevent ethnic cleansing in the run up?

There is no evidence of ethnic cleansing and there is no ethnic difference between Russians and Ukrainians anyway.

Thoughts on how to prevent coercion and violence during polling particularly given the number of Ukrainians who have been disappeared into Russia?.

Supervision and peacekeeping by an independent force, i.e. the UN.

Any thoughts on the long-term impact on the world order?

None, the democratic result should be respected. The world order will have to live with whatever is decided.

Show us the mass graves, the gang raped women, whole cities destroyed, 1000s killed in a month in NI.... then and only then can you draw an equivalence between NI and Ukraine.

Ukraine was first formed over 100 years, it has origins going back 100s of years.

Asov was a small neo nazi group, around 1000, it posed no threat to Russia, as well you know, it was also purged of its nazi element and incorporated into the Ukrainian army, almost all of the former battalion was destroyed.

Disproved.

But you are ok with Wagner Group?

If only Ukraine was part of the EU it could have its own brexit, leave, and enjoy the all the economic benefits we're currently experiencing.

No one can be this naive, can they?

The world order will have to live with whatever is decided.

🚩🚩🚩

@SleeplessInEngland did you forget to quote the question I was responding to which literally used the same term, Bot? nice red flags you're flying, I bet Vlad is very happy to see those.

any thoughts on national debt/budget deficits/austerity/spending choices?

One thought is that working hard to contain Russia does send a message to China that the world can act in the face of unprompted aggression to a neighbor.

Useful given the current situation in China. Because the economic impact of sanctions on Russian and the disruption to the global supply chain would be far worse economically for the UK than anything currently being experienced.

So for our own selfish economic reasons it is a reasonable idea to support Ukraine.

@Hont1986

So people from Scotland living in England of their own free will are now the same as people fleeing death and war?

Regardless, Russia isn't interested in free and fair referendums, policed by a UN peace keeping force.

Russia would have to withdraw from Ukraine, including Crimea, UA forces too, the areas destroyed... rebuilt, the original populations (who want to) back in situ.... then and only then, could a vote take place.

Pie in the Sky.

I'm not sure they debate is on your agenda anyway

What of the soldiers in the Azov battalion who are Jewish. Where do they fit in, or are the my Jewish nazis. Like the president.

🤣🤣

Calling your accusers bots. The oldest bot trick in the book.

Useful given the current situation in China. Because the economic impact of sanctions on Russian

Dam, this needs to say China.
It makes no sense as I have written it. Sorry.

Yep, lots of them, many of which I've already shared on this thread. Mainly that the economic risks and costs are likely to be greater if the West pulls support, Ukraine folds and Russia is in a much stronger strategic position to stage the next step in its stated irredentist aims with stronger ability to manipulate the global food system as well as energy, and a view that the west is basically a pushover.

And that's without the China considerations on which I know you believe you are wiser than a lot of experienced people.

I've answered yours. How about you share your views on the value of sovereignty?

@Hont1986 You aren't debating, your name calling...

Neo nazi's exist in all armies, all countries & the point is, they posed no threat to Russia.

Didn't you lot drop a missile on a Ukrainian Holocaust Memorial? not to mention multiple hospitals and maternity units..... i think the way Russia has conducted this war against civilians, shows exactly who the Nazi's are in this conflict.

Right, should we also 'respect the vote' in the recently annexed regions? You know the referendum held door to door at Russian gunpoint.
Prior to the liberation of much of these regions where the UAF were actually greeted with hugs and flowers, as oppose to the propaganda fed to Russians that that's how Russian troops would be welcomed by Ukrainians.

@Saysomething1234 Do you not realise this war is a game of cruel geographical and political chess? If the UK does not play its own game right, Russia (and China) will gain more territory and dominance, making the whole world a very different place.

Limiting energy was a move by Putin to bring Europe to its knees during the winter. You kneel down and let him win? Now how would that look like for you and your kids in the long term if you gave in?

Yes @Hont1986 i reported your particularly nasty comment about me.... which has been deleted.

There is no defending what Russia is doing in Ukraineas you are doing... its heart breaking... to wage war against civilians, women children the elderly and now to try and freeze them all to death, deny them sanitation, water.

Putin will go down in history along side Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin et el ... he is a monster and whatever his fears about Ukraine.. should have been conducted via the UN and or sanctions, especially as Russia is a permanent member of the SC.

....and Russia itself will never again be counted among civilised European nations.

Jesus wept!

Frankly there's probably more sense to be had out of the ones who are busy decomposing in Ukrainian fields.

any thoughts on national debt/budget deficits/austerity/spending choices?

Yes, we could make a trade deal with the EU. The current post Brexit situation is costing huge amounts in lost trade. It dwarfs the sums given in aid to Ukraine.

Also the more trade we have with friendly, democratic countries the better. I am worried we have outsourced too much vital manufacturing to China.