To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

[Saysomething1234]

This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC

We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this

Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness

How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement?

We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot.

AIBU?

Even more Russian jews have fled to Israel since the war began. What are they feeling from?

I think they get the checklist

What form exactly would this "negotiated settlement" take?

As many others have said, it's a case of considering the fact that if Russia does invade Ukraine, will they stop there? Will they keep invading across Europe? How close to our country do we want them to invade to until we get involved? How many other countries will we stand by and watch Russia invade before we decide it's time to act?

You are correct OP that it is very, very expensive to assist in this way but it's been highly theorised that Russia is testing the water to see what they can get away with. Putin is an unpredictable force and he may not stop at Ukraine. Even if Putin does eventually manage to invade Ukraine but decides to stop there - will his eventual successor? Or will it be seen that Europe did so little that there would be the opportunity to invade other surrounding countries to increase Russia's grip.

However, I do also think that if other countries in Europe contributed more towards the Ukrainian efforts, we would then be in the position where we in the UK might not have to spend quite as much money on the support effort.

According to Algazeera's statistics (provided in December 2022), other than the USA and "EU Institutions", the UK is the highest provider of assistance, followed closely by Germany. Countries such as Poland, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, Estonia etc are contributing very little independently in the way of assistance, whether it be by financial, humanitarian or military means. Although almost every country is in a financial crisis of some kind or another currently, the UK is included in this and yet we are donating large amounts where other countries don't appear to be. Other countries need to step up to prevent Putin invading Ukraine and potentially moving further into Europe. I don't think we should withdraw support, but if other countries increased their levels of support it may be less necessary for us to spend as much - if we spent less but other countries gave similar amounts of assistance, Ukraine would have much more aid but the UK would be in a better financial position.

I do have a friend who is Ukrainian though so I may be biased in my absolute belief that we should contribute towards the Ukrainian defense effort. He is the same age as me (early 20s) and used to have a hobby doing WW1 and WW2 war reenactments as part of a group, taking photos and hosting displays for the public. It's gut wrenching to now see photos of him in full, modern military gear, carrying real, working weapons, forced to fight in a situation he never wanted to be part of. He is fighting to keep his home, his family, his sisters and his country safe.

@JassyRadlett

The agreement, brokered by three EU diplomats, called for the creation of a national unity government, a presidential election by December 2014, and a return to an earlier Ukrainian constitution that would have curtailed Yanukovych’s powers.

The official said the United States worked with Yanukovych's government, Ukraine's opposition, and “other stakeholders to reach an agreement to put Ukraine back on track toward fulfilling the aspirations of the Ukrainian people for democracy, respect for human rights, European integration and long-term economic growth.”

With everything so elegantly brokered, not sure why the elected President had to flee. Just folks taking care of business I suppose.

Countries such as Poland, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, Estonia etc are contributing very little independently in the way of assistance, whether it be by financial, humanitarian or military means.

Actually by GDP Poland, Estonia and Latvia lead if I am not mistaken. So not really very little. Happy to be corrected

It's going to be primarily women now. The troll farm is in St. Petersburg, which hasn't seen as much conscription as in more rural areas. That may change with the next mobilization.

According to Algazeera's statistics (provided in December 2022), other than the USA and "EU Institutions", the UK is the highest provider of assistance, followed closely by Germany.
Surely it means European countries contribute more than UK,as they contribute both through EU and through direct channels too

You've proved my point. If China thinks that the West is weak, it will attack. How would it decide if the West is weak? Well seeing the West stand by while Russia annexes Europe would be a pretty big clue.

You know that the other stakeholders included the Russians who actually signed it, right?

I've no doubt Yanukovych felt pressure and threat from the riots and unrest after he went back on the promised and brokered agreement. He probably also feared trial and imprisonment from a newly-elected administration, particularly given his own track record. It's not particularly surprising to me that he and his administration chose flight.

Worth comparing his behaviour to the current incumbent, also under significant personal threat for an extended period.

However I'm not sure why you think an internationally brokered agreement to try to deal with a truly dire situation would have guaranteed his personal safety or should have granted him immunity from prosecution?

I'm not sure that 'man flees arrest warrant' is the smoking gun you think it is.

And apologies, I was incorrect earlier. Lukin didn't actually sign the agreement, but was present at the signing and Russia was a party to the mediation.

(See, that's how we act when we get things wrong.)

The solution is simple. Immediate ceasefire while a UN-supervised referendum is held in Ukraine. Regions that vote to become Russian can become part of Russia; regions that vote to stay Ukrainian can remain Ukrainian. Generous grants should be made available, paid for by Russia and Ukraine, to fund relocations of people who wish to move to the other country, including the market value of any land/property they own.

Agree that look beyond the headlines in the MSM and it's actually hard to unpick the details a lot of the claims about who is giving the most aid.

Do you ignore aid counting as coming from for example Spain since it might be routed via an "EU institution...? Ultimately It's still aid given by Spain...other example countries in the EU can be inserted in the same examples.

There's also the issue that some countries have perhaps been less keen on trumpeting details every piece of kit being donated than others and OTOH we still have no idea of the identity of some promised assistance - for example the 125 anti-aircraft guns the UK was supposed to be donating.....

In any event it's fast changing and the details as as clear as mud but FWIW:

www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/media-information/2022/ukraine-support-tracker-europe-surpasses-the-us-in-total-committed-aid/

According to that report it looks like even Germany is getting it's act together, though there will a lot of devil hidden in the detail:

"Germany's new commitments and its contribution to the large new EU package now make it the largest donor in Europe in absolute terms, overtaking the UK for the first time, with a total of 12.6 billion euros in German pledged support to Ukraine. Germany committed and delivered more weapons, winter equipment, plus a large new package to support cybersecurity and war crime intelligence efforts."

@OopsAnotherOne the EU budget comes from EU countries and as you say they are the second biggest contributor.

So Germany for example contributes twice, once individually and once through its contribution to the EU budget.

My impression is that both Germany and France have stepped up in terms of helping. Germany have provided some really useful air defense systems.

you're arguing that we're funding ukraine so that the chinese wont attack taiwan? so fund a war so another global behemoth wont be aggressive? FFS europe cannot counter china, wake up. chinese economy is expected to be more than 2x europe by 2050...

www.pwc.com/gx/en/research-insights/economy/the-world-in-2050.html

i'd quite like to smoke whatever you're smoking. must be fun.

If we count illegal/fake referenda

www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/opinion/the-brief-the-beauty-of-annexing-kaliningrad/

you're arguing that we're funding ukraine so that the chinese wont attack taiwan?

No, in classic russia-apologist style you've put an argument in their mouth. They simply said that would be a by-product of not standing firm with russia.

Up until 2021, the UK contributed to the "EU money pot" so it isn't far fetched to consider that some of the UK's contributions to the EU's funds may have gone towards Ukraine. This is complete speculation on my behalf though and I do not know whether or not this is the case.

However, the EU Institutions have contributed 35 billion Euros to the Ukraine war effort while the UK has contributed 7.1 billion Euros. Divide the 35 billion Euros donated from the EU by the 27 countries in the EU and it averages 1.2 billion (roughly) each. While the EU as a bulk of 27 countries has contributed more than the total amount given by the 4 countries in the UK, the UK has still contributed more than the EU countries.

I gave the example of Germany who have contributed significantly more, alongside their EU contributions they may have contributed the similar or even more than the UK. But there are many, many countries who have contributed much less and if these amounts were evened out, it may be possible to support the war in Ukraine without as much of a negative financial impact on our own economy.

The problem with this being a lot of pro-Ukraine people living in the Donbas etc have fled the invasion. How do you have a fair referendum when so few inhabitants remain.

In which a poster misunderstands the definition of 'simple', the powers of the UN to act under Chapter VII, how the security council operates, the ability of a recently-destroyed country to effectively pay reparations to an aggressor, and the concept of national sovereignty.

That's before you get to the interesting question of whether the pre-war opinion polls were right and then whether they still hold, and what Russia would do if the four/five annexed regions voted to be Ukrainian as the pre-war polls suggested.

And then comes the question of what an emboldened Russia, with its invasionary tactics confirmed as an acceptable way to achieve its expansionist goals, does next.

And then China has a quiet think about how unserious the West is and how little of a fuck they'd give about Taiwan. (Because despite OP's optimistic claims, a great many people with a great deal of military and diplomatic experience from a great many countries see this as a material issue in determining strategy on Ukraine.)

I'm not saying they haven't - I've just posted above to say that there are some countries in the EU which have contributed significantly less.

Germany was the example I gave as being another high contributor alongside the UK. France has contributed 1.4 billion Euros plus their EU contribution (averaging 1.2 billion Euros among all EU countries). Some could give more so others don't have to give as much.

I'm not meaning to single out any other countries, but more highlight that yes, while the EU as a whole has contributed more than the UK, the proportion of each country's input into that fund seems to be less than what the UK has contributed, excluding Germany and a couple of other countries which have donated more.

And yes, we give Ukraine whatever they want. Anything. Everything. They are fighting Russia so we don’t have to. They have Russian soldiers perpetrating war crimes against them. That could so easily be us being bombed and raped if Russia is allowed to pick off any country it chooses.

Also this.

And also while the ceasefire negotiations are going on, how many ethnic Ukrainians in occupied areas get slaughtered to try to get a 'better' outcome from a vote.

Hold the referendums. Respect the votes.

@notimagain
That's a great chart you posted. So its US, Germany, France, UK, Italy in terms of absolute contributions

Would be good to see it in terms of GDP as well.

You're really crap at this. It's adorable watching bots try over and over again.