To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

[Saysomething1234]

This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC

We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this

Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness

How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement?

We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot.

AIBU?

You are tagging the wrong person. I am very Pro-Ukraine .

I am Russian, I sometimes post here in the Ukraine thread. Reading this is very interesting and revealing for me. I can get some of the arguments, even if I see the situation from the other side of the propaganda war. But what is interesting is how both sides keep comparing the situation with the WWII. Brits keep bringing on the appeasement argument. And for many Russians it is the next big war against the new 'drang nach Osten' from the West - Napoleon in 1812, then Hitler, now NATO. Like 'every 100 years or so Russians have to drive back those who decided they can rule the world'. So the similar argument used by the opposite sides, and it is working

It's ok OP - the brexit bounties will arrive soon then we'll have plenty of money.

Some of these posters are clearly the type to think women shouldn't wear short skirts

So the similar argument used by the opposite sides, and it is working

Arguments can be used in good faith and bad. The fact that the Russians believe they're right doesn't mean anything at all, just that their leaders are good at propaganda (which everyone knew anyway).

By what rights do Russia lay claim to Ukraine?

Napoleon invaded Russian sovereign territory
Hitler invaded Russian sovereign territory

Former Warsaw Pact and post-Soviet states initiating NATO membership - not an invasion of Russian sovereign territory or in any way 'drang nach Osten'

The victim mentality

When one side is genocide, then there's not really two sides, is there?

Interestingly, Russian discussion boards and telegram channels are full with 'how bad in propaganda our Government is and how successful and much more subtle Western and Ukrainian propaganda tools are, we should learn from them asap'.

As for the question - my observation was about propaganda, I don't think it is useful to repeat here any arguments from the Russian side, there are many available sources explaining the Russian POV, I wasn't intending to bring them here. Just sharing observations from the 'enemy camp'.

I'm sure that's how Putin's framing it, but it's bullshit. You know that, right?

You are not being unreasonable OP, although it seems that people are very willing to have no limits on how much should be given away from the public purse.

I wonder if it will change when gas bills reach £5000 a year.

It seems every time Zelensky appears, it is with his hand out-even Joe Biden critisised him for this and as for madame Zelensky telling us to more or less shut up and put up with it, when her husband his a multi million pound property empire-then words fail me.

He will never negotiate because, I'm sad to say, he seems to be carried away by his spot on the world stage and Putin won't negotiate because he is crazy.

So how is it going to end?

I wonder what the result of a national referendum giving us the choice between meeting strikers' pay demands and more money into our services OR continuing to give away military aid to Ukraine would be?

I hear grumblings about the billions been given to Ukraine a lot but rarely on MUmsnet. I wonder if Mumsnet is in a little bubble-as it is about so many things-all of it sown.

@Ranevskaya

You can claim all you like this is some sort of equivalence to 1941 or Napoleon, its not.... Ukraine posed no threat to Russia and you know it.

But History will be your judge and what Putin has done to Ukraine is to make sure that when the worlds mass murderers and countries are named... Putin and Russia will be right up there with the very worst.

You are free to criticise the West and the UK... if i were in Moscow now... i would be locked up or worse for criticising Putin... doesn't that tell you something.

BTW the UK has not spent 100s of billions, its less than would run the NHS for a month.

Just sharing observations from the 'enemy camp'.

They weren't particularly new or surprising observations though. Of course the Russian propaganda machine is going to position the argument like that. It doesn't mean it has any validity.

The fact that you're even presenting it here shows that the propaganda is better than the credit you're giving it. The argument falls apart at the slightest scrutiny.

I hear grumblings about the billions been given to Ukraine a lot but rarely on MUmsnet. I wonder if Mumsnet is in a little bubble-as it is about so many things-all of it sown.

Polling currently shows the majority support Ukraine aid. If you're against then I'm afraid that, for now at least, you're the one still in a bubble.

Always the way with this argument. Predicated on the assumption that people outside the West don't have real agency, they're just there waiting to be moved around. They're not like us.

Quite racist, really.

Be reasonable OP - how can you expect the US (and therefore UK, as it’s ally) to stand idly by while Russian invaded the country which launders our money?

OP you are ignorant. Support Ukraine or support their oppressors.

I read a lot of Russian forums and news and this isn’t the main thread of what I’ve seen.

Ive seen a lot of fear around the idea of Russia breaking up, nationalistic republics, the rise in national identity and the destabilisation of Russia. The fear that loss equates to the loss of life as they know it, success asserts the stability of Russia and how it’s better to stick together (this is a highly simplistic version, but the essence of it). It’s more about the strength and glory of the ways of the USSR and harking back to the glory days/ values.

I’m now seeing a huge about of depressive content about the war and outcomes, notably from quite pro-war sources.

I’ve seen a lot of older people talking more simply of pride/ the support of the church and values.

I’ve seen a lot about WW2 in terms of tactics and equipment!

Russian friends seem to be in very complex positions over it, and very cynical of propaganda whatever their stance. The same as Ukrainians, they aren’t swallowing the super hero stuff and are scared of going East too as cannon fodder.

Im surprised at your phrase ‘from the other side of the propaganda war’. You seem to be the first person I’ve encountered who is actually’seeing’ it as Russian media presents it all. There are some facts in this you can’t get past- the invasion of a sovereign nation being a massive sticking point for any alternative ‘truth’.

This thread is bringing up all the incorrect ideas from earlier, reminding me how frustrating it is to read

So exactly as I said, not members of NATO and therefore under no obligation (either way) to go to war in support of other member states. Which is the raisin d’etre of NATO. It’s possible I may know more about this than you, OP, so be careful what random stuff you say…

I think the OP needs to read up about the world wars in Europe and how/why they started

This argument starts from the foolish premise that there's a pre February 2022 option open to us, that a mechanism exists where Russia will just behave itself and keep the reasonably priced gas taps on if we just fall into line. There isn't. For that reason, your contention that this is a choice between domestic and military spending is bollocks.

If Putin is permitted to get away with this, the screws will be further turned. Sending weapons to Ukraine, lots of them, is very much in our economic interest. That's some to all of the reason we're doing it, depending on perspective. Fortunately, most British people get this, hence the widespread public support for assisting Ukraine.

The Russian propaganda accidentally leaves out the bit where Russia has well over a century trying to obliterate Ukraine and Ukraine annoyingly keeps refusing to be obliterated.

@EncyclopediaOfNought We might be reading different sources. As for Russian friends - they are different. Some ppl I know have left the country, some are in depression and feeling guilty, some are concerned, some live their lives as before, some consider volunteering to help Russian army, quite a few blame the West. As far as I know nobody is happy about what is happening.
Probably I didn't express myself well enough, I think that comparing that to WWII is just a propaganda tactics that is it. I just was a little surprised how often it is used in the UK as well.

We need to support them.

Is it still propaganda when it's true?