To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

[Saysomething1234]

This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC

We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this

Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness

How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement?

We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot.

AIBU?

Probably I didn't express myself well enough, I think that comparing that to WWII is just a propaganda tactics that is it.

The comparison to appeasement is perfectly valid. You may not see it in those terms, but it's not a deliberate misrepresentation of truth. So fundamental differences between the comparison as used by both sides.

Why don’t you think appeasement is relevant?

@Ranevskaya We allowed Putin to do so much pre 2022, he just carried on taking more... he thought the West wouldn't react and he believed Ukraine wouldn't fight back.

If he'd been right on both.. he'd now be in Moldova and the Baltic states.

...and you'd still be Putin apologist.

The Russian narrative around WWII is quite odd anyway. The USSR started WWII by collaborating with the Nazis to seize half of Poland and then invading Finland. It was only when the Nazis then turned on them that they fought them. The war then ended with the USSR effectively colonizing Eastern Europe.

It is at least oversimplification. The WWII was about (not only, of course) a superior nation looking for 'lebensraum' and considering other nations inferior, exterminating millions of people in gas chambers.
Your might not consider it propaganda, but from what I see your media is very good at creating 'villains' almost like in cartoons - you did this with Saddam, Gaddafi. Assad and now doing it with Putin. I now almost nothing about the first three leaders, but I don't live in those countries and it is hard to judge based only on the media reports. I know, at least, what is happening in Russia and I find the picture of Hollywood style villain and poor oppressed Russians brainwashed by propaganda not helping in any way to resolve the tragic situation. It is good to feel you have moral high ground and know everything about the situation, I almost envy you

I think a lot of the WW2 comparisons come from the visuals and actions. Russia is still storming towns and cities on vast numbers, like WW2. Moving columns of men, like WW2. Invading as a massive force, like WW2. Losing a crazy number of men, about 500-750 Russian men die A DAY, like WW2. Rallies in stadiums, like WW2. Suppressing outside news or communication for their own population, like WW2. Using tanks from soviet times and equipment for people to see too.

Ukrainians are fighting in small mobile groups, hit and back out. They have drone units and a completely different army command structure compared to the Russians. They aren’t engaging in mass forced conscription. Yes there’s a lot of rhetoric, but the shuttering from the world and tactics just simply are not at the same level. There’s propaganda and nationalism yes, but it’s incomparable.

maybe read more forums too as an aside, read around!

The WWII was about (not only, of course) a superior nation looking for 'lebensraum' and considering other nations inferior, exterminating millions of people in gas chambers.

And no one is saying that this is an exact parallel of that. The parallels being drawn are about appeasement. It's not difficult to see that distinction surely?

In fairness the parallels go a little deeper than appeasement. Hitler and the Nazis didn’t start out killing millions in gas chambers. Russia is already disappearing people, deporting children, leaving large percentages of populations in mass graves (look at Mariupol). It’s only a short road to mass genocide on the scale of the Nazis.

@Ranevskaya

I know, at least, what is happening in Russia and I find the picture of Hollywood style villain

Serious question, if not a Hollywood style villain, what is he? How do you view Putin and his actions?

It is at least oversimplification. The WWII was about (not only, of course) a superior nation looking for 'lebensraum' and considering other nations inferior, exterminating millions of people in gas chambers.

OK, so there are some pretty good parallels with 2022 Russia there, if you take out the gas chambers but keep the genocidal intent.

(To be accurate - the parallels people have drawn are with the impacts of the 1938 appeasement policy and the effects of appeasement policies with Russia in the 2010s, which are quite striking in terms of the results. There are reasons we study military and political history; one of which is to seek out patterns.)

WW2 was about rather a lot more than the industrialised genocide of Jews and Roma.

It involved an imperialist power invading neighbours, stealing their land and resources, razing cities, terrorising the population, installing puppet governments, torturing innocent civilians and pretending they were entitled to do all this. This is precisely what Russia has done during the invasion of Ukraine. Hence, the comparison is accurate, and no amount of dipshit whataboutery affects that.

It's also important that we make WW2 comparisons with Stalin as well as Hitler, because Russia has engaged in policies Stalin perpetrated too. Namely, forced deportations.

None of this is remotely controversial, either. It doesn't require a person to know everything about the situation to understand that it's correct, nor does it actually take any position at all on whether the Russian population are brainwashed. Fwiw, I spent a lot of time protesting against the invasion of Iraq.

Yes, I find the appeasement argument not based on any evidence at all. I think it is used to scare people, and it doesn't help.
I might be wrong of course, but I don't see anything showing that Putin wants to go to Poland, Finland, etc. From what I know he has been very reluctant even about Donbass trying for 8 years to put it back into Ukraine though Minsk agreements. Many people criticize him for that. He was almost apologizing in the last speech for trying to stick to the Minsk agreements for so long.
Anyway, what Poland or Finland, with a limited army struggling even in Donbass. And what for?
Again, I might be wrong, that's how I see it.

Yes, I find the appeasement argument not based on any evidence at all. I think it is used to scare people, and it doesn't help.

That's your fault rather than those of people who have made the accurate comparison. You're wrong and an apologist.

By what rights do the EU/NATO lay claim to Ukraine?

A lot of posters seem to forget that the starting point for this war was the EU/NATO supported armed coup against a democratically elected pro-Russian government, which saw them overthrown, and a new pro-EU/NATO regime installed.

It's depressing and frustrating to see so many swallow the "we're the good guys, they're the bad guys" line without question and then dismiss/scoff at Russia for doing the same.

I'm sure there will be lots of name calling now for daring to not follow the narrative now. But ask yourself this, if the German or Canadian government was overthrown by pro-Chinese or Russian protests and a pro-Chinese or Russian government installed in those countries, what do you think the EU/NATO/US response would be?

Interesting debate. The US reportedly sent billions including humanitarian aid and so has the UK and europe and yet I've seen posts where volunteers have gone and here reported that there has been a lack of humanitarian aid?
Maybe the question should be whether we need to reduce the amount we send to other countries in view of now supporting the Ukraine. Could this not be reduced in some way or form as it was during the covid pandemic.
We send millions to Nigeria, Somalia, Ethiopa and Pakistan. Where is this being put to use as we never hear of any positive outcomes which has come from the British taxpayer.

Lol, this thread has really brought certain types out of the woodwork.

Interesting that you mention Poland and Finland here but do not mention the Baltics. Which are NATO members, have significant ethnically Russian minorities, where the Duma has recently taken steps to revoke recognition of their independence for at least one of them. Why is that?

Russia propped up the separatists in Donbas. The idea that Putin was against separatist movements in Donestk and Luhansk, rather than training, arming and providing soldiers for the paramilitary for es there, flies in the face of a significant amount of evidence from various sources.

When looking at the appeasement policies of the West in relation to Russia in the 2010s, particularly over Crimea, why does it not make sense to examine potential historical parallels?

@Ranevskaya Are you posting from russia? How does that work? Is it just propaganda that russians can't access the evil west's media?

It's like a stupid tankie siren went off.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory I would say that the starting point of the war was when Putin invaded Crimea in 2014; and was able to annex this land.

Gosh OP. Both intelligence and compassion at an all time low here. Your posts are both ignorant and truthfully downright disgusting.

I'm just waiting for the "...shelling the Donbas for 8 years" then I call house on my vatnik bingo card

By what rights do the EU/NATO lay claim to Ukraine?

They don't. They aren't invading them, remember?

A lot of posters seem to forget that the starting point for this war was the EU/NATO supported armed coup against a democratically elected pro-Russian government, which saw them overthrown, and a new pro-EU/NATO regime installed.

None of that is grounds for invasion though, no matter how you want to kid yourself that it is. There are many channels to work through diplomatic disagreements.

Yes, I am posting from Russia. I have many friends in the UK and used to study in the UK, that's why I was reading this forum. I'm already regretting posting in this thread, actually, but what did I expect?
Any news sources are available from here. Facebook and Instagram work only through VPN, YouTube has cancelled monetisation for Russian based bloggers (including the western ones), but the news are available and often are even being translated into Russian and posted by different sources. Of course, they're looking for specific news to prove their respective points.

If Russia wins, the implications will be expensive beyond belief, in many ways.