Page 18 | To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

Saysomething1234 · 2023-01-04T21:38:13+00:00

This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement? We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot. AIBU?

Museya15 · 05/01/2023 07:46

Don't forget the young men arriving on the shores of the land from no war torn country.

Pothoswithasparkle · 05/01/2023 07:49

MarshaBradyo · 05/01/2023 07:42

Yeh agree that’s not true

Some posters aren’t really listening to what’s going on

Show quote history

Tbh my family and I also expected quicker end (they are in EE).
Considering at one point Ukraine had more tanks than they started with, even after losses, and it turned out Russia's equipment is probs the one used to invade in 1968... We expected shorter run. But then, they have millions and millions of poor to throw at it.....

Pothoswithasparkle · 05/01/2023 07:50

Pinkflamingogo · 05/01/2023 07:41

Yes actually.

He hasn't done that well with Ukraine has he? He doesn't have the man power, morale among soldiers, resources (etc) to invade further countries. It just wouldn't happen.

Show quote history

He hasn't done well because everyone chipped in with countries like Poland and Latvia being top donators.
Sudden turn of rvents and win would massively boost their morale...

DanseAvecLesLoups · 05/01/2023 08:12

LeccyBillShill · 05/01/2023 03:58

The sanctions regime against Moscow has hurt Europe much more than Russia. Germany is on its knees. The West made a huge blunder when it tried to turn Ukraine into an anti-Russian stronghold, leaving Moscow no other choice than to intervene.

The Ukraine conflict has changed the global geopolitical map - as the West introduced new sanctions against Russia, European political elites for some reason, became enthusiastic about destroying Russia economically and politically while separating it from the EU by creating a new iron curtain.

The West had been pushing Moscow back from its old imperial borders for several decades and Moscow fears that this is not enough for the West. Parts of Ukraine, such as Sevastopol have very strong ties with Russia. Its naval base is vital to Russia as it offers all year access to the Mediterranean and beyond. Compare that to other bases that sit frozen for much of the year and the strategic value it has to Russia. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine 'allowed' Russia to maintain its base in Sevastopol to 2042 in exchange for discounted natural gas. This was the Kharkiv Pact.

The West made a strategic mistake when it tried not only to remove Ukraine from Russia’s sphere of interest, but also to turn it into a large population and military base against Russia. It is no wonder that when Ukraine looks Westwards towards the EU and NATO membership that Russia sees this as a red line and those that ignore this have done so at their own peril.

Russians have genuine and justifiable anxieties about this and could not be expected to sit idle in the face of these threats.

What a grubby apologist for Russian aggression. But 'the West' made Russia do it. Do you believe that any former Warsaw Pact country has the right to self determine its own future and direction of travel or should they forever remain within Moscow's sphere of influence? Why do you think pretty much every eastern European country has tilted towards the EU and or NATO? Did 'The West' make them do it or did the legacy 40+ years of direct oppressive control from Moscow have something to do with it?

Due to sanctions Russia is an economic basket case, capital flight, collapsed rouble, it's youngest and brightest have fled, default on debt payments, foreign currency reserves depleted, Europe divesting it's energy dependency, manufacturing crippled due to lack of semiconductors and Russia being forced to sell its oil and gas at knock down prices to India and china. Yes, Europe have taken a hit but to suggest they are worse off is deluded.

Original poster

Saysomething1234 · 05/01/2023 08:19

EndlessRain1 · 05/01/2023 07:45

yeah, you are right. Let them die and let Russia continue to break international law without consequence, let's not waste our money.

We’re still allowing them to die. Many here are supporting the logic that we are arming them so that they fight the Russians and wear them down - and in the process many hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will die. This will save UK lives since the Russians won’t go any further.

so spare me the lecture about saving lives. It’s about saving british lives as the cost of a proxy war elsewhere using Ukrainian lives

OP posts:

SirMingeALot · 05/01/2023 08:23

Saysomething1234 · 05/01/2023 08:19

We’re still allowing them to die. Many here are supporting the logic that we are arming them so that they fight the Russians and wear them down - and in the process many hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will die. This will save UK lives since the Russians won’t go any further.

so spare me the lecture about saving lives. It’s about saving british lives as the cost of a proxy war elsewhere using Ukrainian lives

Show quote history

What do you think would happen to Ukrainians if they hadn't been armed and supported and Russia had occupied the whole country? Because you conveniently ignore that here.

knittingaddict · 05/01/2023 08:23

Untitledsquatboulder · 05/01/2023 07:40

we were told it would be over in days

No we weren't.

Exactly. Putting thought it would be over in days. Turns out he was wrong. The Russians and lots of other people underestimated the Ukrainian nation. That was their biggest mistake.

knittingaddict · 05/01/2023 08:24

Putin. Stupid autocorrect.

SirMingeALot · 05/01/2023 08:25

knittingaddict · 05/01/2023 08:23

Exactly. Putting thought it would be over in days. Turns out he was wrong. The Russians and lots of other people underestimated the Ukrainian nation. That was their biggest mistake.

Show quote history

Yes, it rather depends on who the 'we' in this situation are. If that poster was listening to Russian propagandists, for example, he/she/it could well have picked up on that idea.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 05/01/2023 08:26

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 21:52

So we have no limit to how much we should spend to support Ukraine?

You need to stop seeing it as supporting Ukraine and rather adding an additional barrier against Putin who is a power hungry egotistical psychopath in one of the most influential and resource rich countries.

No, there shouldn't be a price on protection. And in order to protect us we need to protect them.

MarshaBradyo · 05/01/2023 08:27

Saysomething1234 · 05/01/2023 08:19

We’re still allowing them to die. Many here are supporting the logic that we are arming them so that they fight the Russians and wear them down - and in the process many hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will die. This will save UK lives since the Russians won’t go any further.

so spare me the lecture about saving lives. It’s about saving british lives as the cost of a proxy war elsewhere using Ukrainian lives

Show quote history

So you want deaths outside Ukraine instead ?

What are you arguing for

What is it you want to happen instead - when you say negotiate what outcome exactly?

Original poster

Saysomething1234 · 05/01/2023 08:29

MarshaBradyo · 05/01/2023 08:27

So you want deaths outside Ukraine instead ?

What are you arguing for

What is it you want to happen instead - when you say negotiate what outcome exactly?

Show quote history

in the ask by the russians to negotiate i didnt see anything about wanting to take over all of ukraine. Nato neutrality, recognition of the eastern separatist provinces, and crimea to russia - those were their starting lines (presumably negotiable)

i am no expert but sounds like a negotiation is there to be done.

OP posts:

SirMingeALot · 05/01/2023 08:32

I call wind up. Nobody's that daft.

Kpo58 · 05/01/2023 08:33

i am no expert but sounds like a negotiation is there to be done.

How do you negotiate with someone who wants to take over your country and regularly permanently disposes of anyone who doesn't agree with him? Is that someone you would want to live under?

orchid220 · 05/01/2023 08:34

vera99 · 05/01/2023 04:03

We were told it would be over in days.It wasn't we were told Putin is ill and dying he isn't. We were told Russians would rise up and get Putin out they haven't. We were told Russians are running out of missiles they aren't. We were told the ruble and economy would collapse they may be having difficulties but the Russians seem impervious to pain. Since the US and NATO seem unwilling to give Ukraine game changing munitions and tech it seems our involvement is just prolonging the agony. The difference in WW2 is we declared total war and fought the aggressor to the bitter end and that ultimately in the case of Japan involved nukes.At the moment its looking like Ukraine is getting destroyed and Russia is just shrugging and doubling down. Something has to give.

Who is "we"? You have slipped up a bit there as we weren't told it would be over in a few days at all in the UK.

ButterflyOil · 05/01/2023 08:34

No expert but you’ve got your Russian talking points lined up nicely.

Pothoswithasparkle · 05/01/2023 08:38

Saysomething1234 · 05/01/2023 08:29

in the ask by the russians to negotiate i didnt see anything about wanting to take over all of ukraine. Nato neutrality, recognition of the eastern separatist provinces, and crimea to russia - those were their starting lines (presumably negotiable)

i am no expert but sounds like a negotiation is there to be done.

Show quote history

Whatever is this emand remind me of.... Hmmm

Pothoswithasparkle · 05/01/2023 08:38

SirMingeALot · 05/01/2023 08:32

I call wind up. Nobody's that daft.

You would be surprised!

DanseAvecLesLoups · 05/01/2023 08:44

Saysomething1234 · 05/01/2023 08:19

We’re still allowing them to die. Many here are supporting the logic that we are arming them so that they fight the Russians and wear them down - and in the process many hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will die. This will save UK lives since the Russians won’t go any further.

so spare me the lecture about saving lives. It’s about saving british lives as the cost of a proxy war elsewhere using Ukrainian lives

Show quote history

Again, you and a few others frame this as if Ukraine has no agency in its decision making. 'We' are not forcing Ukraine to fight, they have elected to defend their homeland against an aggressive invader that is ideologically opposed to the very existence of their country. A pretty strong motivation to resist. Russia on the other hand have lost 100,000 lives, most of them poorly trained, poorly equipped conscripts from poor rural areas. It is not quite the marching through Kyiv within days as they have hoped. This war has been catastrophic miscalculation by Putin, these days it is less about restoring Russia to its original imperial borders but saving face for Putin who has built his entire presidency on a 'strong man' platform. Ukraine is winning this war and if they choose to continue to push Russia from it's sovereign territory then the 'The West' should continue to support it financially and militarily.

JassyRadlett · 05/01/2023 08:45

Saysomething1234 · 05/01/2023 08:29

in the ask by the russians to negotiate i didnt see anything about wanting to take over all of ukraine. Nato neutrality, recognition of the eastern separatist provinces, and crimea to russia - those were their starting lines (presumably negotiable)

i am no expert but sounds like a negotiation is there to be done.

Show quote history

And the fact that territorial integrity is a red line for Ukraine?

Who's doing this deal? Who's negotiating?

(and as for 'separatist provinces'... careful, your bias is really showing. You'll be telling us to 'respect the results of the referendums' next.)

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 05/01/2023 08:49

The fact we can afford to allocate funds to prevent Russian warmongering to spread demonstrates that funds are available to the government if they choose to spend them.

This means that the government could choose to improve a whole lot of failing services and pay underpaid workers properly if they wanted to. But they choose not to - not because there is no money, not because our defence strategy is to limit Russian aggression, but because they simply don’t want to spend money on social needs due to their ideology. The worker must be “wanting” at all times, dependent on employer and landlord.

DanseAvecLesLoups · 05/01/2023 08:50

Saysomething1234 · 05/01/2023 08:29

in the ask by the russians to negotiate i didnt see anything about wanting to take over all of ukraine. Nato neutrality, recognition of the eastern separatist provinces, and crimea to russia - those were their starting lines (presumably negotiable)

i am no expert but sounds like a negotiation is there to be done.

Show quote history

Why should Ukraine have to give up any of its sovereign territory to an aggressive invader?

GermanFrench22 · 05/01/2023 08:54

So we stop the miltary aid to Ukraine and change our rhetoric to urging negotiations. What happens next?

The Ukrainians fight on with support from the Americans and Europeans
Global energy prices do whatever they would have done anyway
Russia continues to consider us an enemy because they always have and because of our previous support to Ukraine. They are encouraged to continue the war in the hope of splintering the unity of western countries
We severely damage relations with our military allies and other democratic countries who view us as an unreliable partner and will be less likely to come to our aid if we need it in the future

I see zero benefits to the UK from this course of action

Igotjelly · 05/01/2023 08:57

Saysomething1234 · 05/01/2023 08:29

in the ask by the russians to negotiate i didnt see anything about wanting to take over all of ukraine. Nato neutrality, recognition of the eastern separatist provinces, and crimea to russia - those were their starting lines (presumably negotiable)

i am no expert but sounds like a negotiation is there to be done.

Show quote history

You can’t negotiate with someone who is a liar. Putin has absolutely no interest in genuine negotiation, only a pause on hostilities to allow him to rearm and make another attempt to take the entire country.

As for the ‘separatist’ provinces, you clearly know nothing about this. Even on the case of the Crimean referendum only about 30% of the population are thought to have voted and of those only about half voted in favour of leaving Ukraine. As for the more recent referenda it’s impossible to know because people were forced to vote in favour, at gunpoint.

But yes we should just abandon people in those areas to be disappeared, tortured, raped and murdered.

DanseAvecLesLoups · 05/01/2023 08:59

Igotjelly · 05/01/2023 08:57

You can’t negotiate with someone who is a liar. Putin has absolutely no interest in genuine negotiation, only a pause on hostilities to allow him to rearm and make another attempt to take the entire country.

As for the ‘separatist’ provinces, you clearly know nothing about this. Even on the case of the Crimean referendum only about 30% of the population are thought to have voted and of those only about half voted in favour of leaving Ukraine. As for the more recent referenda it’s impossible to know because people were forced to vote in favour, at gunpoint.

But yes we should just abandon people in those areas to be disappeared, tortured, raped and murdered.

Show quote history

But....but......."The West"