to think Rishi Sunak can't count

Nimbostratus100 · 2023-01-04T08:16:00+00:00

Say approx 5 000 000 secondary school children in England Say approx 20 000 qualified specialised maths teachers 5 000 000 /20 000 so each maths teacher gets 250 children Say each child gets a lesson 4 times a week, and the teacher is actively teaching 80% of the time. so that's about 5 classes of 50 And the teacher marking and planning for 200 pupils a day Can't Sunak see any flaws in this plan? We are not in a position to provide maths specialist teaching up to 16. We missed recruitment targets by a third this year. We are not able to provide ANY sort of education to 18 for many students, even keen and motivated students are frequently unable to find school places after 16. So add in to my original equation the fact that a certain number of those original 5 000 000 will be reluctant to comply with the maths teacher even if they are timetabled to be with one In fact, currently, I know some maths classes post 16, (which are supposedly compulsory for anyone who is still in the system and does not have maths GCSE) have anything up to 60 students on the register already. But are timetabled with 10 text books in a room with enough room for 20, on the assumptions that most wont attend, and the system would break if they did.

MrsMurphyIWish · 04/01/2023 08:20

Complete joke!

Not a maths teacher but another secondary teacher. Currently KS3 are being taught by non-specialists so the GCSE students do have a specialist. We offer A-level Maths but not further Maths anymore because of lack of specialists.

Original poster

Nimbostratus100 · 04/01/2023 08:22

Half of secondary schools currently don't have enough maths specialists to teach the current maths timetables.

And by maths specialists I don't even mean maths graduates, I simply mean teachers who specialise in teaching maths, having graduated in any other subject.

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sst1234 · 04/01/2023 08:25

Titanic. Deckchairs. Re-arranging.

Alaldlccmemsjzja · 04/01/2023 08:27

I’m so depressed about politics

I really cannot stand rishi sun am - what a lifeless, uninspiring man. He’s literally just a suit. we’re in the worst state we’ve been in for my entire lifetime and this truly dull man just says the same shit over and over
he has literally no charisma or leadership skills

but voting labour? I just can’t. I feel it would be a vote against my own sex. How can you vote for that?

Chickenly · 04/01/2023 08:27

Obviously we don't have enough maths teachers (DH is one) you lost me at "so that's about 5 classes of 50". What's about 5 classes out of 50? You've also switched from 250 to 200 during your post if I'm pedantic - which I am because I'm pissed off that DH is a maths teacher and grumpy this morning.

Regardless, YANBU. And specialist maths teachers doesn't actually mean "better" - technically DH isn't one. He has an A* at GCSE and A Level maths, an engineering degree and a PGCE in physics - but clearly not qualified enough to teach maths according to Rishi. But someone with a B in A Level maths and a degree in French could be a maths specialist. Being a specialist is somewhat meaningless as a title - and we can't create teachers out of dust. I left teaching after M2 and walked into a job paying £55,000 (and not one person in my new job told me to fuck off or threw anything at me) - that is why everyone is leaving!

GoingtotheWinchester · 04/01/2023 08:30

@Chickenly your last sentence nails it. Ex teacher here too. 😢

Fakeairpodsfakeoodie · 04/01/2023 08:36

I used to teach maths @Chickenly that's half the reason I left, the other 50percent was being overworked. Wild horses and double my old pay couldn't drag me back into teaching, and Rishi is going to need to drag people back in to get enough qualified maths teachers in front of the whiteboard for this.

DrManhattan · 04/01/2023 08:39

We all know that he can't do maths, evidence being how he trashed the economy when he was Chancellor. Continuing to do so.

Choconut · 04/01/2023 08:40

TA's are already having to teach GCSE maths at DS's very good school. We know there is a huge shortage of maths teachers already so I have no idea how he is going to magic up all the teachers needed to make sure compulsory maths continues to 18.

Chickenly · 04/01/2023 08:43

GoingtotheWinchester · 04/01/2023 08:30

@Chickenly your last sentence nails it. Ex teacher here too. 😢

Solidarity! I don't think anyone who hasn't taught has any idea what it's like - I genuinely didn't have a single clue. Granted, I worked in a "rough" school but that just meant I worked a hell of a lot less than counterparts in schools with higher standards - but that my working day was more like being a prison guard than anything else. I broke up countless fights, almost daily - even whilst pregnant and with pupils far larger than I am. I had things thrown at me constantly (scissors, books, shoes). I was sworn at constantly, I was spat at, I was shoved. On top of that, the dozens of complaints about disciplining pupils - from parents and from SLT. I was told (by the head teacher) that telling me to "suck my mum" wasn't against any school rules because it's not a swearword and that I couldn't give a detention for them throwing something at me "because it missed". And, believe or not, this was my experience as a teacher that the majority of the kids actually liked and I was bloody strict. I saw so many colleagues (male and female) in tears. DH works in a better school than I do and, after giving a detention to a student, they went into the car park, found our car and kicked the wing mirror off it - even though it was on CCTV, the head of behaviour concluded it was an accident because the pupil said they didn't mean to break it when they kicked it. DH and the pupil had to have a "restorative conversation" to "build bridges" which resulted in no consequence for damaging our car and the initial detention being cancelled. ...lo and behold everyone's shock when the same pupil threw a mini whiteboard (or wipeboard?) at a different teacher the next day.

And that's just issues with behaviour - I haven't touched on the stress of "oh, the heating's not on today, enjoy" or "wifi's down, no access to emails but you'll still be in trouble if you don't respond to them" or "the network's down, no registers but you'll still be in trouble if you don't know where your pupils are and why - and you can't get your resources either" or "the department has used up their paper for the term so no more worksheets"...

Original poster

Nimbostratus100 · 04/01/2023 08:45

Obviously we don't have enough maths teachers (DH is one) you lost me at "so that's about 5 classes of 50". What's about 5 classes out of 50? You've also switched from 250 to 200 during your post if I'm pedantic - which I am because I'm pissed off that DH is a maths teacher and grumpy this morning.

@Chickenly I changed from 250 to 200 because I was assuming 4 lessons a week, not 5. So 200 students a day needing marking and planning for. Sorry, I am not sure what your other point about class sizes mean

Anyway, all figures are very approximate, and there is huge variation in schools and areas, As I said, I know maths teachers with 60 on the register for some post 16 classes, as things stand.

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LaFemmeDamnee · 04/01/2023 08:46

He needs to get a fucking grip. If the system is failing to produce functionally numerate adults after 12 years of education then the system is fundamentally flawed and attempting to force reluctant 17 and 18 year old into an under resourced, ill thought out programme isn't going to come close to remedying it. Twat.

cptartapp · 04/01/2023 08:48

At my sons 'outstanding' secondary, it got so bad that the librarian was temporarily taking the class. In year 11.

Chickenly · 04/01/2023 08:49

Nimbostratus100 · 04/01/2023 08:45

Obviously we don't have enough maths teachers (DH is one) you lost me at "so that's about 5 classes of 50". What's about 5 classes out of 50? You've also switched from 250 to 200 during your post if I'm pedantic - which I am because I'm pissed off that DH is a maths teacher and grumpy this morning.

@Chickenly I changed from 250 to 200 because I was assuming 4 lessons a week, not 5. So 200 students a day needing marking and planning for. Sorry, I am not sure what your other point about class sizes mean

Anyway, all figures are very approximate, and there is huge variation in schools and areas, As I said, I know maths teachers with 60 on the register for some post 16 classes, as things stand.

My point about class sizes is that I can't read, OP. 😂Maybe Rishi should focus on English instead of maths and we'd see a reduction in comments like mine on here (I read it as "5 classes out of 50").

Original poster

Nimbostratus100 · 04/01/2023 08:50

@Chickenly

Exactly, by "specialist" maths teacher, I mean a teacher who prioritises maths in their career, with the skills, and knowledge and interest in maths, as opposed to the history teacher told "you have to teach this year 8 class maths this year, because we have got no one else". No, I agree, being a maths graduate does not necessary make you a better maths teacher, although I do think every school should have at least one teacher with that depth of knowledge. Many dont.

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CalistoNoSolo · 04/01/2023 08:51

I didn't think there could be a single PM worse than Johnson, and what do you know? We get two in Truss and Sunak.

Sunak is an appalling joke of a PM, utterly incompetent, lacking empathy and understanding, in hock to the headbanger element of his party, zero leadership skills....

This latest is just a deflection pure and simple. He (or more likely, his advisors) is trying to get get the spotlight off the slo-mo implosion of the nhs.

Original poster

Nimbostratus100 · 04/01/2023 08:54

cptartapp · 04/01/2023 08:48

At my sons 'outstanding' secondary, it got so bad that the librarian was temporarily taking the class. In year 11.

That isn't "bad" - that is an adult in front of a class, we are a long way from achieving that on many days

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cheeseisthebest · 04/01/2023 08:57

Chickenly · 04/01/2023 08:27

Obviously we don't have enough maths teachers (DH is one) you lost me at "so that's about 5 classes of 50". What's about 5 classes out of 50? You've also switched from 250 to 200 during your post if I'm pedantic - which I am because I'm pissed off that DH is a maths teacher and grumpy this morning.

Regardless, YANBU. And specialist maths teachers doesn't actually mean "better" - technically DH isn't one. He has an A* at GCSE and A Level maths, an engineering degree and a PGCE in physics - but clearly not qualified enough to teach maths according to Rishi. But someone with a B in A Level maths and a degree in French could be a maths specialist. Being a specialist is somewhat meaningless as a title - and we can't create teachers out of dust. I left teaching after M2 and walked into a job paying £55,000 (and not one person in my new job told me to fuck off or threw anything at me) - that is why everyone is leaving!

What job did you walk into? Desperate for a career change!

LlynTegid · 04/01/2023 08:58

Perhaps Maths lessons ought to start with some of his parliamentary party, Kwasi Kwarteng and Liz Truss come to mind.

It seems a proposal to distract from other issues. If there were enough Maths teachers, I'd be supportive, but there are not and so KS1 to KS4 should take priority.

Chickenly · 04/01/2023 08:58

Nimbostratus100 · 04/01/2023 08:50

@Chickenly

Exactly, by "specialist" maths teacher, I mean a teacher who prioritises maths in their career, with the skills, and knowledge and interest in maths, as opposed to the history teacher told "you have to teach this year 8 class maths this year, because we have got no one else". No, I agree, being a maths graduate does not necessary make you a better maths teacher, although I do think every school should have at least one teacher with that depth of knowledge. Many dont.

I agree with you but it's not even just maths. Maths is bad but, at the school I taught in, I was the only person in the Science department with a degree in science - and mine was joint honours. The actual science department was the HoD who had a Primary Teaching undergrad but worked in our school since the 80s when it was a middle school but it then became a secondary, the second in science who had a degree in French and German and had been moved to science when the school stopped offering French and German and a trainee with a degree in Sports Management. All other classes were covered by the PE staff - at least two of whom had failed GCSE science themselves. Every Monday after school, I had to go through their lessons with them for that week (which were planned and resourced by either myself, the HoD or the AHoD) to teach them what they were supposed to be teaching. Ironically, the school had stopped doing French and German despite having a teacher who spoke French and German but kept all the students learning Spanish - even though we had no Spanish teachers and it was taught by a Brazilian TA or the Cover Supervisor (I kept it very quiet that I speak Spanish or my PPA would have disappeared completely). The school didn't even teach geography. Until Y9, it was a combined history/geography that was taught by the history teachers and there was no geography GCSE option.

Original poster

Nimbostratus100 · 04/01/2023 09:00

Chickenly · 04/01/2023 08:43

Solidarity! I don't think anyone who hasn't taught has any idea what it's like - I genuinely didn't have a single clue. Granted, I worked in a "rough" school but that just meant I worked a hell of a lot less than counterparts in schools with higher standards - but that my working day was more like being a prison guard than anything else. I broke up countless fights, almost daily - even whilst pregnant and with pupils far larger than I am. I had things thrown at me constantly (scissors, books, shoes). I was sworn at constantly, I was spat at, I was shoved. On top of that, the dozens of complaints about disciplining pupils - from parents and from SLT. I was told (by the head teacher) that telling me to "suck my mum" wasn't against any school rules because it's not a swearword and that I couldn't give a detention for them throwing something at me "because it missed". And, believe or not, this was my experience as a teacher that the majority of the kids actually liked and I was bloody strict. I saw so many colleagues (male and female) in tears. DH works in a better school than I do and, after giving a detention to a student, they went into the car park, found our car and kicked the wing mirror off it - even though it was on CCTV, the head of behaviour concluded it was an accident because the pupil said they didn't mean to break it when they kicked it. DH and the pupil had to have a "restorative conversation" to "build bridges" which resulted in no consequence for damaging our car and the initial detention being cancelled. ...lo and behold everyone's shock when the same pupil threw a mini whiteboard (or wipeboard?) at a different teacher the next day.

And that's just issues with behaviour - I haven't touched on the stress of "oh, the heating's not on today, enjoy" or "wifi's down, no access to emails but you'll still be in trouble if you don't respond to them" or "the network's down, no registers but you'll still be in trouble if you don't know where your pupils are and why - and you can't get your resources either" or "the department has used up their paper for the term so no more worksheets"...

Show quote history

And I bet I can guess who got called in to take the blame when darling little window kicker missed his target grade.....

OP posts:

Original poster

Nimbostratus100 · 04/01/2023 09:02

Chickenly · 04/01/2023 08:58

I agree with you but it's not even just maths. Maths is bad but, at the school I taught in, I was the only person in the Science department with a degree in science - and mine was joint honours. The actual science department was the HoD who had a Primary Teaching undergrad but worked in our school since the 80s when it was a middle school but it then became a secondary, the second in science who had a degree in French and German and had been moved to science when the school stopped offering French and German and a trainee with a degree in Sports Management. All other classes were covered by the PE staff - at least two of whom had failed GCSE science themselves. Every Monday after school, I had to go through their lessons with them for that week (which were planned and resourced by either myself, the HoD or the AHoD) to teach them what they were supposed to be teaching. Ironically, the school had stopped doing French and German despite having a teacher who spoke French and German but kept all the students learning Spanish - even though we had no Spanish teachers and it was taught by a Brazilian TA or the Cover Supervisor (I kept it very quiet that I speak Spanish or my PPA would have disappeared completely). The school didn't even teach geography. Until Y9, it was a combined history/geography that was taught by the history teachers and there was no geography GCSE option.

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This all sounds depressingly familiar

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Chickenly · 04/01/2023 09:02

cheeseisthebest · 04/01/2023 08:57

What job did you walk into? Desperate for a career change!

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Law - trainee solicitor. I'm on six figures now (qualified, two and a half years later) and there's a lot of teachers about. There's a new qualification system now from the one I had but I've seen some firms pay you about £20,000 (tax-free) to do the required course before you even join a firm (and you can top that up with the master's student loan if needed) and then you're paid in excess of £50,000 as a first year trainee with most firms in London offering six figures once you qualify.

PollyPeePants · 04/01/2023 09:03

Alaldlccmemsjzja · 04/01/2023 08:27

I’m so depressed about politics

I really cannot stand rishi sun am - what a lifeless, uninspiring man. He’s literally just a suit. we’re in the worst state we’ve been in for my entire lifetime and this truly dull man just says the same shit over and over
he has literally no charisma or leadership skills

but voting labour? I just can’t. I feel it would be a vote against my own sex. How can you vote for that?

Ah, so you voted for this. Of course you can vote Labour! Cast aside your worries about some of the probably very small/ imagined impacts on a very small number of 50% of the population, the majority of which impacts are probably already happening for the good of 100% of the population on a whole range of issues.
Labour have to be vote winners. They have to sit on the fence about all this gender bollocks because it's so hard for them to pick up Tory voters worried about them being able to manage the economy that they can't lose votes from some of their core Labour voting wokesters.

fancyacuppatea · 04/01/2023 09:03

It would be quite helpful if Mr Sunak could calculate how much salary a full-time nurse requires that means the nurse doesn't have to go to a food bank...
Or what the hourly rate is for a qualified teacher when you add up all of the non-pupil facing hours of admin/prep together.

Most of us can count to 40...where are all the new hospitals? and where are you recruiting the staff from, Mr Sunak or was that another mis-spoken idea, and you're just tarting some up with a coat of whitewash?