Page 17 | There is no god

OldKingCole · 2023-01-02T19:02:17+00:00

Inspired by another thread … I was surprised by the level of atheism professed … as I always though I was in a tiny, tiny minority. would be interested to see the MN response. IABU - there is a god IANBU - there is no god

blockedear · 03/01/2023 11:17

Oops name change fail there

ErrolTheDragon · 03/01/2023 11:17

GOD as a concept is well argued with logical inferences. The problem is most people do not understand the concept of logic.

It really isn't 'well argued with logical inferences' though. You can make that assertion, but it's hard to find thinking people who remain theists who don't find that they have to accept it's a matter of faith, not logic.

True enough that many people don't understand logic though!

MarshaBradyo · 03/01/2023 11:19

ErrolTheDragon · 03/01/2023 11:17

GOD as a concept is well argued with logical inferences. The problem is most people do not understand the concept of logic.

It really isn't 'well argued with logical inferences' though. You can make that assertion, but it's hard to find thinking people who remain theists who don't find that they have to accept it's a matter of faith, not logic.

True enough that many people don't understand logic though!

Can someone say why God follows logical inferences

Faith in God is apart from logic so why would it be the case

pointythings · 03/01/2023 11:24

I'd also like to ask the believers on this thread why their god is so obsessed with what people do in bed? I've never had a rational answer to that one.

PrincessConstance · 03/01/2023 11:30

Parker231 · 03/01/2023 11:14

So why does “God” and the Church say that being gay is sinful?

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I've no idea?
All sexual conduct is condemned for unmarried heterosexuals.
I'm technically living in sin, so I'm doomed too.

Livetoplay · 03/01/2023 11:31

‘I'd also like to ask the believers on this thread why their god is so obsessed with what people do in bed? I've never had a rational answer to that one.’

you can’t control your followers unless you give them some arbitrary rules to follow, then judge them on how well, if at all, they have followed them.

pointythings · 03/01/2023 11:34

@PrincessConstance well, if it turns out that everything I believe is wrong and there is a God, and he/she starts having a go at me for my sexual morals, I'm going to tell him/her to eff off because it's none of his/her business. With all the problems we have in this world, which he/she is doing jack about, he/she needs to reasses what the priorities should be instead of sitting in judgement on high.

And this is the problem: if the deity of the bible exists, it is not worthy of anyone's worship.

CulturePigeon · 03/01/2023 11:34

I don't believe in God, but then I suppose it's fair to say that the universe might not be limited by what I believe in!

But I wouldn't rubbish religion completely. Jesus and Buddha (for example) were real historic figures and both seem to me great teachers/philosophers, with great wisdom and much to teach us. I'm afraid I don't know much about any other religions so can't comment further than that.

I've always thought that, if you do believe in God, you must either think he/she's NOT omnipotent OR he's a complete monster. If they have the power to prevent suffering and yet don't, then there's only one conclusion to draw. But I don't believe in any of the supernatural elements of religion, only the philosophical ones.

I don enjoy going to the odd evensong in a cathedral or a church service occasionally because it's my culture - I love the architecture, the music, the liturgy. If you think this is hypocritical, let me tell you that I've known a number of ordained priests over the years who share my attitude.

Also - I give evangelical and other religious enthusiasts a very wide swerve but am equally bored by frothing-at-the-mouth atheists - where their stance is almost a religion in itself!

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 11:38

ofwarren · 03/01/2023 05:11

There are loads of versions of the Hippocratic Oath. Exeters for example, is secular
www.exeter.ac.uk/students/graduation/bmbs/hippocraticoath/

Bristol don't do the oath at all, it's called the Bristol Promise

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Oh dear. Did no one tell them that promises can be broken?

A friend in law told me that ethics and laws are not treated with equal weighting by the human legal system. Ethics might be considered in a case as a formality, but the lawyers and medics will really only care about if it’s legal or illegal in man made laws. He basically said that ethics were optional because they were not enforceable (at least not in man made law).

At least oaths retain the idea of enforcement, should the ethical code be grossly violated. The enforcer was traditionally named as a god.

So who will enforce the Bristol promise? See the problem now?

This is scary for medicine. Medicine is a noble profession, but it attracts people for selfish reasons too, such as status, power, security and money. Why should a medic care about breaking a promise they believe is unenforceable?

Telling me this only adds to my concerns that God probably sent the corona pandemic. It’s a valid consideration when faith texts show God is capable of sending plagues and pestilence of that magnitude and impact.

ofwarren · 03/01/2023 11:44

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 11:38

Oh dear. Did no one tell them that promises can be broken?

A friend in law told me that ethics and laws are not treated with equal weighting by the human legal system. Ethics might be considered in a case as a formality, but the lawyers and medics will really only care about if it’s legal or illegal in man made laws. He basically said that ethics were optional because they were not enforceable (at least not in man made law).

At least oaths retain the idea of enforcement, should the ethical code be grossly violated. The enforcer was traditionally named as a god.

So who will enforce the Bristol promise? See the problem now?

This is scary for medicine. Medicine is a noble profession, but it attracts people for selfish reasons too, such as status, power, security and money. Why should a medic care about breaking a promise they believe is unenforceable?

Telling me this only adds to my concerns that God probably sent the corona pandemic. It’s a valid consideration when faith texts show God is capable of sending plagues and pestilence of that magnitude and impact.

Show quote history

This is just nuts
The GMC enforces it, as does the British legal system.

PrincessConstance · 03/01/2023 11:45

ErrolTheDragon · 03/01/2023 11:17

GOD as a concept is well argued with logical inferences. The problem is most people do not understand the concept of logic.

It really isn't 'well argued with logical inferences' though. You can make that assertion, but it's hard to find thinking people who remain theists who don't find that they have to accept it's a matter of faith, not logic.

True enough that many people don't understand logic though!

The assertions or the classical arguments have been hotly debated for centuries since humans existed. From the Ancients-Aquinas-Kant-Lennox etc.
The Ontological argument.
The Cosmological argument.
The Teleological argument.
The Moral argument.
There are myriads of variations of these themes.
I'm an orthodox catholic, so I do have some knowledge of religious doctrine and morality. Dp however is very keen on these arguments, in fact, post-degree he's 1000% sure there is a supernatural power-force-GOD responsible for the universe.

LindaEllen · 03/01/2023 11:47

HisNameWasMike · 02/01/2023 19:09

Of course there isn't a god. I'm amazed rational people still believe these tales from the dark ages but they do!

This 100%. I sit in church sometimes (I'm in a brass band so we get hired to do church services sometimes) and watch the congregation chanting and praying and I think oh my god this literally looks like something from the dark ages. I almost wouldn't be surprised if they took a child to the alter and sacrificed them.

We know so much more about science now, and don't need all this crap.

Do better, 'believers'!

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 11:54

ofwarren · 03/01/2023 11:44

This is just nuts
The GMC enforces it, as does the British legal system.

Show quote history

No, you do not understand.

Did you not read the bit about enforcement?

In practice, both the GMC and the British legal system are only considered about the legality of something. In practice and reality the ethics are treated with a pinch of salt (I was shocked when I found out too).

Ethics is a grey area; law is not. GMC and the British legal system have finite resources. It’s easier and efficient to give heavier weight to the law side -and this what apparently happens.

My friend in law told me about cases that were clearly unethical but permitted by the GMC and the British legal system because they were considered ‘legal’ by man made law. So in cases where something was ‘legal’ but not ethical, then it was permitted by the GMC. Sounded more like the GMC are busy and will explain away an unethical case if it was deemed legal.

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 11:54

*concerned

Parker231 · 03/01/2023 12:03

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 11:38

Oh dear. Did no one tell them that promises can be broken?

A friend in law told me that ethics and laws are not treated with equal weighting by the human legal system. Ethics might be considered in a case as a formality, but the lawyers and medics will really only care about if it’s legal or illegal in man made laws. He basically said that ethics were optional because they were not enforceable (at least not in man made law).

At least oaths retain the idea of enforcement, should the ethical code be grossly violated. The enforcer was traditionally named as a god.

So who will enforce the Bristol promise? See the problem now?

This is scary for medicine. Medicine is a noble profession, but it attracts people for selfish reasons too, such as status, power, security and money. Why should a medic care about breaking a promise they believe is unenforceable?

Telling me this only adds to my concerns that God probably sent the corona pandemic. It’s a valid consideration when faith texts show God is capable of sending plagues and pestilence of that magnitude and impact.

Show quote history

DH is a doctor - as a new doctor he did an affirmation rather than an oath. The majority of his class didn’t do a religious oath

ofwarren · 03/01/2023 12:12

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 11:54

No, you do not understand.

Did you not read the bit about enforcement?

In practice, both the GMC and the British legal system are only considered about the legality of something. In practice and reality the ethics are treated with a pinch of salt (I was shocked when I found out too).

Ethics is a grey area; law is not. GMC and the British legal system have finite resources. It’s easier and efficient to give heavier weight to the law side -and this what apparently happens.

My friend in law told me about cases that were clearly unethical but permitted by the GMC and the British legal system because they were considered ‘legal’ by man made law. So in cases where something was ‘legal’ but not ethical, then it was permitted by the GMC. Sounded more like the GMC are busy and will explain away an unethical case if it was deemed legal.

Show quote history

What about all the horrendous practices that have happened in the past, all performed by doctors who had taken the Christian Oath?

Electric shock therapy
Operations on babies without pain relief because "babies don't feel pain"
Gynaecology experiments on black women
Experiments in Nazi concentration camps

There are hundreds of examples from the past.

Doctors don't need to believe in God or to say an Oath to have ethics.

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 12:14

Parker231 · 03/01/2023 12:03

DH is a doctor - as a new doctor he did an affirmation rather than an oath. The majority of his class didn’t do a religious oath

Show quote history

Ah. So in the other thread you were adamant that God had no influence on your life. And here you reveal your DH is a doctor. (DH so you’re married, which suggests the institution of marriage which comes from god-related sources)

Why do you think that the original medical oath invokes God or gods?

If I were a god traditionally invoked in a medical oath, and suddenly notice that new medics were swearing medical affirmations without me, then I would feel snubbed. A snubbed god is likely an angry god who might feel entitled to defend their position.

Lampzade · 03/01/2023 12:17

MoscowMules · 02/01/2023 19:18

I believe in God.

However I do not expect others to believe, I don't need to convert anyone and people are absolutely free to believe/not believe. I ain't preaching some gospel to anyone 🤣

I attend church and enjoy some of the concepts of religion, I am however quite happy to question some of them as I explore my faith and beliefs, and that's personal to me.

I'm probably not "the best Christian" , but I'm not the worst, I feel I have found a calm and accepting middle ground. But again it's all personal to me.

I'm a firm believer in "I'll be me, you be you, and we can meet happily at the middle ground"

This is absolutely how I feel.
I don’t feel the need to prove anything to anyone

Arseulaundress · 03/01/2023 12:22

@Inspecto , every time you post it reinforces my prejudices against the religious.😄

carbonarya · 03/01/2023 12:24

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 11:38

Oh dear. Did no one tell them that promises can be broken?

A friend in law told me that ethics and laws are not treated with equal weighting by the human legal system. Ethics might be considered in a case as a formality, but the lawyers and medics will really only care about if it’s legal or illegal in man made laws. He basically said that ethics were optional because they were not enforceable (at least not in man made law).

At least oaths retain the idea of enforcement, should the ethical code be grossly violated. The enforcer was traditionally named as a god.

So who will enforce the Bristol promise? See the problem now?

This is scary for medicine. Medicine is a noble profession, but it attracts people for selfish reasons too, such as status, power, security and money. Why should a medic care about breaking a promise they believe is unenforceable?

Telling me this only adds to my concerns that God probably sent the corona pandemic. It’s a valid consideration when faith texts show God is capable of sending plagues and pestilence of that magnitude and impact.

Show quote history

Is this just another excuse for you to peddle your batship covid conspiracies? Give us a break.

ofwarren · 03/01/2023 12:24

Arseulaundress · 03/01/2023 12:22

@Inspecto , every time you post it reinforces my prejudices against the religious.😄

Same
Utterly batshit

Parker231 · 03/01/2023 12:25

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 12:14

Ah. So in the other thread you were adamant that God had no influence on your life. And here you reveal your DH is a doctor. (DH so you’re married, which suggests the institution of marriage which comes from god-related sources)

Why do you think that the original medical oath invokes God or gods?

If I were a god traditionally invoked in a medical oath, and suddenly notice that new medics were swearing medical affirmations without me, then I would feel snubbed. A snubbed god is likely an angry god who might feel entitled to defend their position.

Show quote history

We got married for financial planning purposes - we had already lived together for a number of years. We got married in a hotel not a church and there was no reference to religion/God.

After being a doctor for 25 years I can assure you that DH is not concerned about a God he doesn’t believe in affecting his professional or personal life. A non religious affirmation is now common in the medical world

Livetoplay · 03/01/2023 12:26

@Inspecto ’Telling me this only adds to my concerns that God probably sent the corona pandemic. It’s a valid consideration when faith texts show God is capable of sending plagues and pestilence of that magnitude and impact.’

ah of course. Haven’t heard that one in a while, not since the ‘god sent AIDS to rid the world of homosexuals’ mob …
Malaria? Kills a LOT of children, what’s the big man’s reasoning there? Why did he send that disease?
What is he sending next? Ask your vicar/priest/Imman -
perhaps they’ll have some insight that can help prepare us all better .

Arseulaundress · 03/01/2023 12:26

ofwarren · 03/01/2023 12:24

Same
Utterly batshit

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Yup. Talk about reaching...

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 12:30

ofwarren · 03/01/2023 12:12

What about all the horrendous practices that have happened in the past, all performed by doctors who had taken the Christian Oath?

Electric shock therapy
Operations on babies without pain relief because "babies don't feel pain"
Gynaecology experiments on black women
Experiments in Nazi concentration camps

There are hundreds of examples from the past.

Doctors don't need to believe in God or to say an Oath to have ethics.

Show quote history

All those unethical practices you listed have stopped (thank God!).

I believe only God can intervene to stop humans (in powerful departments like medicine) from unethical practices. The intervention is subtle, not obvious, which is why someone who doesn’t believe in God won’t notice.

What about Dr Knox best known for his involvement in the Burke and Hare murders? He was unethical in the name of science.

The GMC and legal system won’t/can’t intervene in unethical matters as they should because of the limitations of time and resources. Unethical doctors (they do exist) know the GMC are busy and have limitations - which means they can feel unaccountable to ethics as long as they can argue what they did was ‘legal’. This is where I believe God, who has more time and resources, can (and sometimes where there are gross violations of medical ethics) steps in.