To ask for dependents or compassionate leave ?

[FishersGate]

My MIL is dying given days on Wed. She has been unwell for 5/6 weeks. Last night DH came home from hospital as very unwell shivers temp etc. DS 6 threw up earlier in evening. All in one bed. DD is 10. Very little sleep. We also explained to both children re MIL dying.

Myself and DH have obviously had very little sleep over past few weeks.

I was due to work today however I just couldn't face it and felt needed to be with DC especially DS who wasn't well.

Spoke to manager who just left long silences on the phone. She knows mil has been extremely unwell and I haven't asked for any other time off.

She asked how I would like to take time off, I said I can holiday but wasn't sure whether dependents leave or compassionate leave would be appropriate. She replied she didn't know. She said also kept hammering home the point about letting them know when the inevitable happens. She asked when kids are back at school.

I work in emergency service non front line extremely busy but not core area and never take or ask for either. I work part time and 1 day at home. Working from home has also saved them time previously if DC have been ill etc not needing holiday etc

Was it unreasonable in the circumstances to be offered time off or told not to worry ?? I was a bit peed off and now really worried about needing time off going forward ?

How much time would I need to support DH. There is only him and SIL. My children were very close to their nan also. I have known mil 26 years.

Managers discretion is a sure fire way to ensure discrimination in hr policy in my opinion. It's not difficult to write policies with clear parameters that cover most eventualities. Managers discretion should be reserved for absolute outlier situations and I don't think this is one. There must have been other times in the past where an employee has had to care for children due to another relative being indisposed. Sorry that doesn't help you op, I just hate seeing hr policies which are setting employees and employers up for problems. It's unnecessary and distressing for employees particularly.

Unfortunately it's not really because I want to. I won't need the time off again for MIL. I haven't had dependency leave for over 3 years and that was 1 day. I am going through peri menopause and have only had 2 weeks off as GP saw I was struggling that was in March. Sometimes life events aren't choices

@DomesticShortHair did you get signed off?
You should have. Reaction to bereavement is a valid reason to be off.

In general though most people will cope more with losing a pet than a parent. This is not unreasonable, it is true.

I will be asking them yes on Tuesday. Just for any advice going forward thank yiu

This is my bug bear too and you have put it much more sucintly than me

I don't see any evidence this isn't the case. Managers discretion was applied in a case of a colleague losing a grandchild which Id consider to be an outlier and exceptional circumstances.

I work in HR. This isn't an uncommon situation- PILs die all the time. Staff take annual leave if it's absolutely immobile the, compassionate leave for a few days after the death or they get signed off sick with stress as they are not mentally fit to work. Counting toward absence triggers is a moot point if you're genuinely not well enough, or in the right headspace, to work. OP, I feel for you but you have options- don't be a martyr for the cause.

It sounds awful OP. FwIW I agree. You should be able to take a few days off here but it sounds like they won't give it. Take annual leave.

However internally irritated or panic-stricken I might have felt as a manager, I’d ALWAYS be kind and super-supportive when stuff like this happened to my staff, as people are far more inclined to be loyal and hard-working for a sympathetic boss.

Thank you I think you understood my point which I wasn't getting across perhaps. Both managers have form for huffing and puffing when people have called in sick etc.

In these circumstances usually the first day is emergency dependants leave (to allow you to make provision) but subsequently days are normal annual leave. Compassionate leave is typically the day of the death and the day of the funeral automatically then on a discretionary basis depending on relationship eg most companies would allow between the death and the funeral for a parent but for a grandparent (where you aren't in charge of the arrangements) you would be expected in, for a partner or child most companies allow a lot more time. For a mil I wouldn't expect time other than the funeral as compassionate leave.

It's very tough, hope your dc and dp are feeling better soon

It's not a moot point for people in my organisation who swiftly moved up on attendance policies - again at managers descretion

No, I explained the situation to my line manager and requested that I put annual leave in, which they allowed me to do. I didn’t want to explore the option of compassionate leave in those circumstances.

I’d agree that most people will be affected more by the loss of a parent than a pet. But I’d also agree most people won’t be particularly affected by the loss of a MiL. I suppose the point is it’s not so much about the cause or the reason, but the effect that really is the impact. What’s is acceptable or important to one manager isn’t necessarily the same to another. Which is what makes it all very ambiguous, and potentially unfair.

Dependants leave is short term in an emergency situation to arrange alternative care and not for more than a day, 2 at most. I am emergency services too. In this case it would be annual leave or sick if it is more than a day or 2. Dependants leave is an entitlement but does not have to be paid.

compassionate leave is for immediate family members, I am pretty sure MIL would count, but it is 5 days, which includes the day of the funeral.

I think you are going to have to go sick if you really don’t feel you are able to work. Yes it adds up to the trigger points, but again discretion can be used when deciding if you are progressed to the next stage in the attendance process. I am a manager in the emergency services and I have kept people on the informal stage when policy states they should move up to the next stage. I also refused to put someone on the attendance process when they had cancer as I would have been setting them up to fail and move through the process which I felt would have been unfair.

@DomesticShortHair it's really hard. Especially in jobs where you don't get annual leave 🥺

If you were on my team it would be dependent leave for yesterday and annual leave/sickness from now on + a days compassionate to attend the funeral. That would be fully supported by HR. We have a standard policy but allowed managers discretion. The only time I've had an exceptional circumstance was the death of a team members adult DC.

I'm sorry for your situation but like pp said sadly this happens to most of us at some point in our lives and it would be a nightmare to have everyone expecting chunks of time off outside of sickness and annual leave.

This is where I find manager discretion an advantage - I gave 2 weeks leave to a woman in my team when her 3 year old dog had to be put to sleep. She was mid 40s, single and had been open about having therapy for feeling lonely in life. As her manager I knew how hard the death of her dog would hit her, and so allowed her that extra time off. She'd previously never had any time off other than annual leave and was a fantastic, dependable worker. It was at my discretion to give her that time off, and I'm glad I could do it for her. No one in the team complained, wouldn't have cared if they had.

OP you have options. Paid options using dependent, annual or sick leave in varying amounts. Compassionate leave is for after the death and usually limited as well.

You are coming across as wanting additional paid leave on top of this that doesn't eat into your annual leave allowance or count as a sickness episode. That's not how the working world works.

Thank you. I am going to policy then receiving advice from union

I can understand you don’t want to take sick leave, but could you take annual leave or unpaid leave?

Where I work, you’d not be given compassionate leave other than for emergencies for a mother in law. It sounds tough, but some people unfortunately take the piss.

@FishersGate Both managers have form for huffing and puffing when people have called in sick etc.

I’ll never forget starting a new job and the ward sister telling me disapprovingly about a young staff nurse in her 20s who’d “taken a whole year off for breast cancer treatment. It was only chemotherapy” she huffed. That girl died a couple of years later. I never said anything to the ward sister, I hope she remembered it though.

Not really. I have had very little time off. I don't expect tons of additional leave at all. My point was more why should at such a shitty time the onus be pushed back to me to ask for what I might or might not be entitled too.

We were told wed she has days, she is now more unresponsive.

I am close to mil, we live 5 minutes away. My children 6 and 10 are extremely close to their nan and finding it hard to navigate.

I was more aggravated by the long silence, lack of empathy and non decision which I really needed taking out of my hands at 7.30am in the morning after such a shit night on top of a shit 5 weeks or very least 'don't worry we will sort this after the new year '

But obviously my expectations are way too high

I went off sick in a similar situation. I was caring for terminally Sick (end of life care) dad as hospice was full. It was horrendous, he was unconscious most of the time so couldn’t be left. Compassionate leave is only for after someone has died I was told. Never thought about dependent leave but I was too upset to work anyway so GP signed me off with stress,

@mavisMcMinty I don't think this people do unfortunately. Different strokes etc.

I think you could have simplified the conversation with your manager today. Your children and husband are ill and you have no one to care for your children so you need special leave (dependents leave). The unfortunate fact that your MIL is dying is nether here nor there, you have no one to care for your children today so you are entitled to special leave . However this would only be for today as it’s normally expected you arrange childcare for subsequent days
Going forward if the whole situation becomes unmanageable then you need to self certify for a week then get sick note. If you haven’t been on the sick loads then I wouldn’t worry about taking this time as sick leave.
compassionate leave is not normally granted for a relative in the process of dying as this could be anything for days to months. I would say however that MIL is a close relative and when she does die it would be fine to ask for leave for up to a week. Anything after that though would have to be sick leave or unpaid I would imagine.
in terms of the other person in your organisation who has four weeks compassionate leave it may have been that he was actually signed off on the sick for three of these weeks.
i am NHS so just looking at how we would deal with this situation

Sorry for your loss. It's an awful time. Trying to keep things going here for DH and DC but also DH being so unwell he can't sit there all the time is very stressful for him