How do you manage differences in parenting at family events?

[Holddear]

After another Christmas with family, I wondered if other people have similar issues and how they manage it.

As back ground info- Im pregnant and have no other children so tend to try and stick out of parenting things because I know that some of the things me and my husband swear we would never do, we will probably end up doing.
I also work in child mental health/ development so have training on some things, and probably more things that I see as predictors of future issues than most. I guess what also plays on mind is that i recently had a close friend who's child had additional needs, that I didn't highlight to the parents (because I assumed they were aware) and they felt a bit hurt when it was later flagged by nursery that I'd not given them a "heads up".

Main issue:
When we spend time with inlaws family, they have a quite a strong discipline approach to children. My brother in law and sister in law have one 3 year old daughter. I see some vulnerabilities in her.

My neice is a bit of a handful at times, but seeing the way they parent is uncomfortable viewing for me at times. It's very shouty (and has been from when she was a toddler) and uses the sort of tone of voice that you'd give if they broke your best China on purpose, but about everything from not eating veg, to not putting shoes on quick enough.

They aren't physically abusive (although had a brief period of slapping when she was a small toddler that seems to have stopped). they do pull by arms roughly to naughty Steps though. Im not concerned niece is in any kind of physical danger

My main approach is to let them get on with it, not add to feeling watched as I'm sure that makes it harder for them. I have at times discretely left the room when it feels a bit too much to go wash up etc, but they often use a sort of group shaming thing that indirectly includes me. Over our early Christmas for example she hadn't taken her shoes off when asked, and neice was very upset walking round the lounge (with shoes now off) and bil was saying looking nobody will even look at you because you're so naughty etc.

We live in a different country to them so we tend to see them a lot over 2 weeks and then not see them again for a few months, so it's easy to avoid

Theres real moments of tenderness in their parenting but it just feels like they have really swallowed the "she has to learn to listen" so can't let any small bit go. Previously they were having difficulties with dressing I said to them about potentially using timer lights, racing dressing, allowing choice which are strategies I teach parents but they said "she just has to learn, not everything can be a game". So I haven't said anything further

On christmas day we had a video messenger call as a whole family and neice wasnt on screen, but sister in law was really shouting in the back ground and then came on screen and said very loudly where neice was on screen "she's being really fucking shit" angrily. I must have looked a bit shocked because MIL spoke to me after wards and said " I don't know what neice was doing but she must have been really naughty'

I've previously spoken to mother in law and we've been able to say that it looks like everyone's really stressed etc, and she seems to agree that sometimes the shouting isn't needed, but also is very much "bil is trying his best, she's just a tricky child"

Do other people just stay out of these situations? I don't feel close enough to bil or sil to say anything, but also don't know if perhaps I'm a bit more sensitive because of my training

Really surprised at some of these responses. They sound absolutely vile and borderline abusive - slapping and roughly dragging around a 3 year old, publicly humiliating her??? Awful.

OP I don't think that you should ignore your concerns. I'm amazed that so many people apparently think that slapping, shouting and shaming are just varieties of parenting. It does sound as though they're stressed and in that situation being another safe adult can really help. If parents are swearing at the child in front of others this suggests it may be worse when they're alone, though equally it could be that they feel under pressure to be perfect in front of you? Whichever it is, taking the heat out of the situation would be a good idea. I wouldn't agree with the shaming or silently agree when they imply you dislike the child because of her behaviour as it could reinforce their sense that the child's behaviour is offensive to others, not to mention how it could damage a three year old! Try asking 'would it help if I...' and offer to e.g. take her outside for a quiet time perhaps or make them a cup of tea and let you sort out the shoes... showing them that your methods work without direct criticism is probably the best route to get them to try them out themselves.

What I find in some cases like this especially when we are together with friends that when I interact with the kid I will do it the way I do it with my own child but without undermining the parent. I've noticed when you model this, the parent does take notice and if it's a positive outcome they start adopting the strategies you use over time. Don't we all take the useful bits from here and there and bin the bits that doesn't apply when it comes to parenting? As the pp mentioned, I would in this instance offer help or play with the child giving space but without undermining the parent offering a distraction an helping hand.

Also my own child tests me more when there's change of routine, over excitement and when family is around but what these relatives are doing is awful though no matter how stressed they are. My family will take my ds or distract him in this instance which is what you can do instead of offering advice and it might give the mum and dad a break so they can reflect it better when they see you interacting with their child.

I haven't read the whole thread but my advice to you is this:

-I agree with your approach tbh but you know what? We are not necessarily right. There is no right way to bring up a child AND you don't know enough about dniece's psychological make up to tell how it will or won't affect her in the long term.

-You are right that it is not appropriate for you to provide professional insight unless you are asked/paid to do it. Presumably you wouldn't give people advice in a professional setting without asking for a whole load of background info.

• one of your in laws was brought up by the same people as your H and he will be parenting your baby so you need to start having a conversation with him about this sharpish. This has been a real issue between DH & I and there were times when I did not think our marriage would survive it.

I’m another that’s surprised by some of these responses. The parents don’t sound very nice at all. We all get stressed and most of us can get shouty, but calling a 3 year old a fucking shit on a family call is beyond normal to me. If they’re like that in company I’d wonder what they are like in private. I feel sad for the little girl.

At 3, she’s not going to be very speedy at getting dressed or getting shoes on or off. It seems a pretty stupid thing to get so annoyed about, let alone shame her over. Just bloody help her out.

I’d struggle to watch this too OP and would probably use similar avoidance tactics. I think I’d also try and find ways to be nice to the young girl too - play some one on one games, say nice things etc so she knows not everyone is angry with her.

Kids are not allowed on the sofa? Dogs I understand but her own children? Where do they sit?

This approach is likely to affect your niece's self-esteem, possibly for the rest of her life. The slapping is absolutely not on and I hope you're right that it has stopped. No advice, but you are not wrong to be worried.

You mind your own business. I wouldn’t tell my relatives how to parent and they would not tell me.

@Mardyface that's a really good point

I’m horrified by how this little girl is being treated and I think it would be a good thing if there was an adult she saw semi regularly who didn’t treat her that way. You don’t need to contradict them but you can refuse to take part - if they say ‘she’s not looking at you’ just look at her and say hi. She’ll remember it forever.
Awful.

Really tricky because their parenting sounds unpleasant and I do feel sorry for the little girl but they wouldn't welcome advice, wouldn't listen to you and it's nowhere near safeguarding threshold.

I think that most of the time you just have to bite your tongue.

But when they involve you, then you could speak up and make it clear that you're not taking part in their style of discipline.

Eg:

"Aunty won't even looking at you because you're so naughty"

"Of course I'm still looking at you. I'm a bit sad that you didn't do what you were asked but I don't think you're a naughty girl"

They probably wouldn't like it but if they choose to bring you into a conversation then they have to put up with the consequences.

You are right to be concerned OP, in particular, the rough dragging by arms. If that's happening in front of you over minor things then what the hell is happening in private?

I don't think there's anything you can do about it though, your advice won't be listened to or appreciated. All you can do is not take part in group shaming and be ready to report if it gets worse.

“I think often they do involve us though, for example when she was upset they said Holddear and Holddear don't want to look at you because you are so naughty while she was literally crying sitting on my feet. They also told her that we weren't going to come because she had been bad, and throughout the week she was told we were throwing away presents etc.”

This is truly awful. I’d find that hard to watch aswell @Holddear Poor child!
Defo stay out of it but I agree their discipline efforts are dreadful.

I really don’t like some of their parenting strategies, e.g. excessive shouting and shaming. I especially don’t like the shaming part. However, I will add that I was a perfect parent until ds turned 2.5. Now he’s 4, I’m burnt out. A lot of the parenting techniques you suggest are reliant on the mental energy the parent has. You have to be able to think, even when you’re stressed, knackered and you have a million other things to do.

I have a very strong willed and generally disobedient child. Sometimes I have to do what I can to get by, I’ve lost some capacity to parent because he’s worn me down this last year. That’s not an excuse not to, I have a long road ahead. But some children respond much more easily to tactics and discipline. Some children are more easy going. Some children won’t put their shoes on when you ask them to for the 5th time, even if you’re going somewhere fun for them, because they’re constantly pushing boundaries. No parenting expertise can prepare you for the real thing, the real exhaustion because every simple little task is met with resistance and difficulty. It can get to the point where you’re stuck in a rut because your patience is so thin you just do anything to get the child to listen. I’m not saying it’s right, the parents need to recognise it and address it, but it’s much, much harder than it looks.

It’s tricky, what DSiL said (if out of ear shot of child) is unpleasant but being a parent is sometimes hard and people sometimes vent.
Shaming is never good, but also pointing out that people will judge you on your behaviour is a tricky task because it is true.
I work with children who have had to leave main stream education due to behaviour etc, all the well meaning interventions haven’t helped and usually require careful deconstruction to show the child they don’t actually have the ‘special’ label no child really wants.
It’s difficult to tell if you are well meaning but misguided or not.

I really don't like it. I'd have to say something. It's horrible to just leave her on her own in that. I don't know what would work best to stop them kicking off. But if you're scared of them shouting at you then imagine how that poor little girl feels, rather you than her?

Fuck that shit. I'm a parent and a step parent and I work with children (safeguarding) so got a fair bit of experience and don't think your perspective is because you haven't got a kid yet. I wouldn't tolerate being made to be party to that behaviour around any child, especially one I love. I wouldn't give them unwanted advice necessarily but I also wouldn't be made to be complicit in their shaming of the child. I would not support their account I would throw your DN presents away, I wouldn't not offer her some comfort if she was sat on my feet crying. I just wouldn't be drawn into shaming a small child

OP I think you are totally right in your concerns, and frankly there are some horrendous descriptions of parenting behaviour on mumsnet - by people who clearly have no understanding of a child’s developmental needs. Most likely because they have been on the receiving end of bad parenting themselves and therefore think it’s normal.

I think it’s tricky to say something to parents that is critical directly, because most people have an idea of themselves as being good parents, but I think if I was in a situation of being involved in the punishment of the child against my will, I would voice that I thought the punishment was excessive / or was not helping the child learn but making them stressed, and that I did not want to be involved. And I would reassure the child afterwards.

If I felt really strong about it being wrong and bordering on abusive I would say something regardless of family dynamics.

God I feel so sorry for that little girl 😪

I'm really shocked that so many on this thread think it's ok and you should keep out of it!

My heart breaks for that little girl. 3 years old and being shouted at, shamed and bullied. Just awful.

I'd definitely stand up for her and show her that I was on her side. If that 3 year old was sobbing at my feet, she'd be picked up and comforted. No way would I leave her on the floor in that state.

I wouldn't offer any parenting tips but through my actions would show that I don't agree with what's being done. I'd also refuse to be drawn into the bullying and would speak up if the parent was telling the child I was refusing to look at them/throwing out toys/whatever.

Good point from PP about making sure you're on the same page before your baby's arrives. I'd be interested to know what your DH thinks about the way his niece is treated. Have you talked about how you feel with him? Does he agree with you?

I think the best thing you could do is be a positive loving and fun force around your niece, and perhaps if they bring up they are having a hard time mention a great free parenting course your mate went on / you heard about through work that changed their lives etc... If you happen to know what's available near them. I don't think they'll take advice well from you especially as you don't have your own DC but they might from an objective expert.

I can sympathise with you. I have two young kids and parent them quite different to another family friend. The family friend will shout and berate her kids for seemingly nothing. But I also know that nothing I say will help the situation and I will just be in the firing line so I keep my mouth shut.
Children can be very testing and stressful but I've managed to maintain my patience in most situations. But once you have kids, there will be moments you will suddenly find yourself in and have no idea what to do as a parent.
I think staying quiet is the best thing for it, unless you are directly asked for advice. It will be an easier life for you as well x

Ah yet another "let parents be shit because they're parents so they can behave like they want".

Why do we set the bar for parents so low? Why do people even bother having kids?

Some people are so not suited to parenting and excusing poor parenting really needs to stop.

I do think it's worse when we are around because I think they feel pressure to be perfect. I don't think she's at physical risk, and I do think that she is very much loved.

We tend to go for intense periods because there's elderly parents that we stay with and help with. I think we will try to suggest that we meet out in a park etc, rather than them coming round to inlaws so that it's not full days etc

I really hate the idea that they are trying to get her to behave for us. We love seeing her, and expect her to act like a 3 year old so don't mind when she's noisy in a zoom call, or slowing down us walking etc because often we've gone to deliberately spend time with her. If that makes sense?

I think we are all a bit conflicted by realising the reason they parent like this is because they are really stressed and feeling pressure to have a perfect kid, so mil/dh are supportive to them to help reduce the stress. I think mil then becomes a bit defensive because it's hard seeing her son struggling so blames neice a bit.

There is this slight feeling of annoyance or dread that I have when neice does something "naughty" eg. If we are eating and neice is kicking a chair, once you know that then you know the reaction to that will then dominate the meal.

No one wants to then add to the stress pile by saying "there might be a different way to fight this"

They slap her, pull her by the arms roughly and shout at her? She IS at risk