How do you manage differences in parenting at family events?

[Holddear]

After another Christmas with family, I wondered if other people have similar issues and how they manage it.

As back ground info- Im pregnant and have no other children so tend to try and stick out of parenting things because I know that some of the things me and my husband swear we would never do, we will probably end up doing.
I also work in child mental health/ development so have training on some things, and probably more things that I see as predictors of future issues than most. I guess what also plays on mind is that i recently had a close friend who's child had additional needs, that I didn't highlight to the parents (because I assumed they were aware) and they felt a bit hurt when it was later flagged by nursery that I'd not given them a "heads up".

Main issue:
When we spend time with inlaws family, they have a quite a strong discipline approach to children. My brother in law and sister in law have one 3 year old daughter. I see some vulnerabilities in her.

My neice is a bit of a handful at times, but seeing the way they parent is uncomfortable viewing for me at times. It's very shouty (and has been from when she was a toddler) and uses the sort of tone of voice that you'd give if they broke your best China on purpose, but about everything from not eating veg, to not putting shoes on quick enough.

They aren't physically abusive (although had a brief period of slapping when she was a small toddler that seems to have stopped). they do pull by arms roughly to naughty Steps though. Im not concerned niece is in any kind of physical danger

My main approach is to let them get on with it, not add to feeling watched as I'm sure that makes it harder for them. I have at times discretely left the room when it feels a bit too much to go wash up etc, but they often use a sort of group shaming thing that indirectly includes me. Over our early Christmas for example she hadn't taken her shoes off when asked, and neice was very upset walking round the lounge (with shoes now off) and bil was saying looking nobody will even look at you because you're so naughty etc.

We live in a different country to them so we tend to see them a lot over 2 weeks and then not see them again for a few months, so it's easy to avoid

Theres real moments of tenderness in their parenting but it just feels like they have really swallowed the "she has to learn to listen" so can't let any small bit go. Previously they were having difficulties with dressing I said to them about potentially using timer lights, racing dressing, allowing choice which are strategies I teach parents but they said "she just has to learn, not everything can be a game". So I haven't said anything further

On christmas day we had a video messenger call as a whole family and neice wasnt on screen, but sister in law was really shouting in the back ground and then came on screen and said very loudly where neice was on screen "she's being really fucking shit" angrily. I must have looked a bit shocked because MIL spoke to me after wards and said " I don't know what neice was doing but she must have been really naughty'

I've previously spoken to mother in law and we've been able to say that it looks like everyone's really stressed etc, and she seems to agree that sometimes the shouting isn't needed, but also is very much "bil is trying his best, she's just a tricky child"

Do other people just stay out of these situations? I don't feel close enough to bil or sil to say anything, but also don't know if perhaps I'm a bit more sensitive because of my training

I think you’re right to be concerned, they sound awful!

One thing I will say is if you suspect the child is ND, if there is an appropriate time to suggest testing or assessment, I would do that. Parenting nd children IS hard, especially when the child is expected to behave in a NT way.

Would your bil and sil be open to you saying you have noticed certain things you often also see in the children you work with?

I think it's down to personal preference how people parent

I'm quite firm I find my kids need discipline otherwise they just run riot - I'm very clear I'm the adult and they are the children

I'm firm but very fair and organise lots of fun things to keep them busy but if they over step the mark I tell them

All this "gentle parenting" stuff wouldn't work with mine, they need clear instructions

I agree.

Slapping (although this has 'apparently' stopped), pulling by arms, shouting, swearing, shaming particularly in front of others in order to humiliate the child, they sound absolutely dreadful parents.

Yes children can be a handful, yes they test your patience to extremes, yes they can push you to your limit and on occasion parents can react in the moment because they are at the end of their tether but it seems this is a constant state with these parents.

A child being 'tricky' is no excuse.

Poor child.

Stay out of it, and mean it gently but I suspect your training in theoretical parenting is completely unrealistic in most family situations.

The "giving choice" example is something a busy family just doesn't have time for - you select the clothes and they need to learn to dress (or be helped to dress) in a timely manner. The "nobody's looking at you" I can completely relate to too.

My dd is autistic and some well meaning professionals who had been on a 2 day course on autism seem to think they knew more than I about parenting dd, each child is a unique individual who responds to a different styles of discipline etc. I got excellent advice from an autism expert on parenting and stuck to their principles rather than the busybody family therapist with a one sized fits all approach

I would find that very difficult, and I've been parenting nearly 5 years now. Shouting, hurting and shaming kids simply isn't necessary and from what I've seen from kids growing up alongside DS it leads to much worse behaviour from the kids over time.

If it were me, I'd send them the book "How to talk so kids will listen" and say "Ignore if this isn't helpful, but it seems you guys are having a terrible-3s time, so this might help" and let the book speak to them if they can be bothered.

I feel for you OP. I find it really depressing watching parents interact with their children like that.

They sound horrible and abusive. I’d really struggle to be around that.

I had this with my sister. Very distressing.

for the most part I stayed out of but - but I made sure that they knew that I loved them etc and modeled a different way to be. Very now and then when she went way to far I told her to stop it and she was ashamed and did. And I would sometimes pull them aside and say this is not your fault that your mother is being insane.

it’s very hard. She’s more relaxed now their older and I am very close to them
and managed to maintain a relationship with her.

I’ve always heard so long as emotionally abused children have one person they can get through it - so I’ve always tried to be that person.

its hard though

This is the trouble when the default shouting method. Shout to get attention, then your kids will only respond to shouting, and you can say "see that's all that works". It isn't, unfortunately it's just what you've taught your kids.

That’s really tough OP. If you were my friend I would appreciate your suggestions, as gentle parenting is something I’m passionate about and I want to work with my kids. It doesn’t sound like they will ever agree though. So you’ll only frustrate yourself trying.

I am a step mother so my perspective on parenting is through that lens. (ie limited!)
But frankly there’s no way I’d be complicit in this kind of telling of. That incident where she was crying at your feet and they were telling her you wouldn’t look at her. Fuck that! I’d be telling them straight not to involve me on their approach to discipline.
In your shoes I’d be a lovely approachable auntie and work on your relationship so she feels safe and loved with you. Poor kid.

Seems to be a lot of nonsense replies on here! OP I would fully understand you feeling uncomfortable with how they are parenting. Screaming at her for not taking her shoes off quick enough, calling her shit, wow all the posters on here thinking that that's normal to a child! It's not normal, it's aggressive and is setting her up to think people being so nasty snd aggressive is normal.

However, I dont really see much that you can do about it. They are not harming her, they are just clearly not very nice people.

I honestly don’t think anyone would think this was ok if the husband was doing and saying these things to his wife. Telling her she was stupid or shouting at her for putting her shoes on or yanking her by the arm - but because she’s only a kid, people see that as fair game.

I understand why you feel uncomfortable. DH and I also feel uncomfortable seeing and hearing parents shame their children and be unpleasant towards them.

We aren't perfect and we make mistakes, but we aim to be fair and reasonable and hold boundaries appropriately.

Parents who shout and bully and humiliate their children aren't attempting to respect their children, which is something that makes us feel uncomfortable because it doesn't align with our worldview.
It's understandable that you don't want to be dragged into other people shaming their child.

I think you sound lovely OP. People saying it's none of your business. I don't agree. Children are vulnerable and if adults are mistreating them, Other adults should speak up. We all have different parenting styles but they sound way OTT and quite bullying. If everyone turned a blind eye to bullying style parenting wouldn't there be more children suffering abuse. I'm not saying they are abusing their daughter, but there are some worrying things you've mentioned there, and yes I am a parent.

Unless there was a safeguarding concern it’s absolutely none of your business.

I think some parents become shoutier and more stressed when they're around other people. It can be stressful parenting in front of other people and tend to be more aware of your surroundings and any damage when not in your own home.

Lassaiz-faire parents get plenty of bitching done about them, so it seems so strict parents. You actually can't win.

If you have more than one child it becomes evident that different children respond or different strategies and that you can do all the same things and have entirely different outcomes.

So long as you're happy there is no safeguarding issue, as you say you are, definitely don't police the tone they use or critique their expectations.

FWIW your thoughts on the situation sound reasonable, but sharing them will get you nowhere good.

I’m surprised how strong the consensus to mind your own business has been. I wouldn’t advocate dishing out advice, but there’s a whole spectrum of response between that and a whole family group standing mutely complicit.

In my wider family, someone would pipe up “ah sure she’s only young” or “here why don’t you get a cup of tea and I’ll take this one off for a bit” or one of the granny’s would be slipping sweeties to the disgraced child. And of course there would be rows about it, but it all helps bring things into balance. Granny’s are great for a couple of stories about mum or dad’s naughty behaviour too.

I’ve been the over anxious parent going overboard, and as much as I gritted my teeth and probably posted on MN about my interfering dps, or pils, with a bit of space you do realise that you’re a bit OTT and we all need a reset now and then.

We don’t learn enough about parenting - I’ve read a lot on this subject because I’m conscious of my ignorance, and one of the biggest problems (pointed out by a pp) is that punishment feels effective, and then quickly traps you in a vicious cycle. There’s also a huge spectrum between punitive and “gentle parenting” but how can we learn without social feedback.

I really sorry for the little girl in your story, because no one seems to be able to stand up to the parents and she takes the brunt of everyone’s cowardice. Is the rest of the social interaction as serious? Does no one ever tease or poke fun at each other?

not sure why you are getting some aggressive replies when you clearly stated you are not interfering and are simply asking do you have an obligation to get involved. I think you've done all you can do OP. I feel very sorry for that little girl.

SIL and MIL were very into the whole family being involved in disciplining a child. I thought and think that it is completely ineffective to have everyone saying the same thing so never got involved and when it came to my own children stopped it dead "It's ok MIL I will deal with this". One of my SILs had this weird thing of almost force feeding her children their dinner - so you'd have a four year old being actually fed her dinner on a fork. I said to MIL that this was nuts she agreed but her attitude was "well she wants me to do it so I do". They stayed in my house and I was told I should feed one of the children I was sitting next to (not a baby or toddler) and I said "oh I don't do that." In fairness they grew up eating normally eventually.

sorry meant to say that you don't have to be involved in the group shaming. If they say something like "Holddear doesn't want to look at you" I don't think there is anything wrong with saying "Oh I always want to look at X because I love her so much". At the very least they will stop involving you in the shaming.

"Oh I always want to look at X because I love her so much".
I like this response a lot.

My mum used shame and humiliation as a parenting technique. No-one ever said anything so I thought that I deserved it and had low self esteem for decades. You can't intervene without causing a massive row (that likely won't achieve anything anyway) so my suggestion would be to talk to the child privately when you can, ask her if she's OK and give her some positive praise to counterbalance in whatever small way you can. It would have made a difference to me if someone, anyone thought that I was being treated unfairly even if it was never spoken publicly, I wouldn't have felt so alone. As an aside, my parents parenting style also meant that (a) I became good at lying to them, and (b) I would never confide in them about ANYTHING (I would be ridiculed for being "weak" if I got upset at falling out with a friend for example). I didn't have anyone to talk to, if you can be that someone for your niece I think that would make a big positive difference for her.

YANBU for raising an eyebrow over this, most people will judge shit parents (even though they’ll swear blind on here they don’t)

but you’d be silly for raising it unless it went to a level where it could be considered a safeguarding concern

If they say something like "Holddear doesn't want to look at you" I don't think there is anything wrong with saying "Oh I always want to look at X because I love her so much". At the very least they will stop involving you in the shaming.
This is a good response and it allows the child to know that you're not complicit in her shaming.
Poor child needs to know she has some adults on her side.