English thing or an english generational thing?

[Winniethepig]

I'm Australian and my partner is
English, I have had two births, one on the NHS and one in Australia on our NHS equivalent.

Tonight our visiting in laws asked me to compare the births, and I had to say all in all the Australian birth was better and the one on the NHS was pretty horrific.

In short the NHS gave me a stretch and sweep without even asking, under the guise of an examination, which was excruciating. Followed by an extremely delayed epidural (I had to be augmented with hormones, and they said I could have the drip but had to wait for the epi, and every doctor and midwife gave me different reasons), only tk have it cut off to push, and then was stitched up with hardly any pain relief.

Compared to Australia, Epidural with 30 mins of asking, Epidural left in for the entire time through to stitches; and no examinations without gas and air or someone talking me through it.

Basically they told me; well can't we agree that your babies are here now, and just draw a line beneath it all? Then MIL said, well I had episiotomies without being asked (in the 80's) and I don't complain.

Honestly, why ask? If you just want to shut it down.

Is this an English thing? Am I supposed to just give a happy response, or is it just that generation?

Is it unreasonable to give an actual honest answer?

I think it is a British thing - the NHS must not be criticised or reformed or changed at all.

You see it on MN all the time - any slight criticism of the NHS and you're accused of wanting a US system and the NHS sold off (why we can't look at the very good systems in Europe is beyond me).

That’s such a horrible feeling - I don’t blame you but there are ways to ensure you have a the experience you deserve. Firstly make sure you have a good advocate - if it’s your OH, make sure he will stick up for you and ensure you have everything you need. Secondly - don’t be afraid to speak up. Insist that you have pain relief NOW and don’t be fobbed off. Make sure your advocate supports you in this. It’s not easy to do when you’re in pain but I learnt the second time around from being feeble in my first birth and I had a lot better experience. Also the sooner you go home the better - postnatal wards are awful! Good luck

I’ve had a baby in Aus and on the NHS as well and also agree that the Australian experience was so much better. The care afterwards was completely incomparable with midwives actually caring and helpful they were amazing in Aus. I couldn’t even get my stained sheets changed in the nhs hospital and had to share a room with a male (partner of other patient).
I find that the English won’t have anyone complain about their nhs but it’s ok to complain about it themselves.

@saraclara no, I have lived in several countries and agree with the PPs who cite English (more than British) exceptionalism. Not doubting your experiences of Australians; I know few of them. But I find the English on the whole to be as bad as the Americans, and with less reason overall. Of course this isn’t everybody! Virtually none of my family or friends. But it is very strange.

Ideally everyone (from what we might call a non-problematic country, at least) considers that their own native country does certain things best and perhaps regards it as a small patch of heaven on earth. But it is ironic that so many otherwise understated English are so open about the superiority of their native land with so little cause.

Is this an English thing? Am I supposed to just give a happy response, or is it just that generation?

I don't think it's either. It's a "you and your relationship with your in-laws thing".

I think that experiences vary. I know someone who had a very high risk pregnancy and so was card for in a fetal medicine unit- world class care from referral to delivery and through NICU etc etc.
Then there are people with shocking experiences, and everything in between.
And of course it's NU to give an honest answer! They did ask after all. Tough to them if they didn't like the answer.

Were you on the basic Australian system or topping up? Most Australians in work are paying extra for enhanced services so of course it is a higher level, no different to if we pay for top up bupa or similar.

I had 2 births, one in the U.K. one in the USA, despite posher facilities and lots of extra surplus staff at the hospital I got better aftercare in the U.K. because of the home visits (in the USA I was discharged after 18 hours and next time I saw a health professional was at the drs office at 2 weeks, just as well she was my 2nd!) Mine were natural births so no idea about pain relief, remember epidurals are not usually medically necessary

The NHS isn’t fit for purpose though.

And that’s not a criticism of the NHS, but of almost two decades of Tory cuts and ministers trying to squeeze it dry. The NHS retention crisis is something we should all be really worried about.

Bingo

I had one in Canada, and in the UK - similar experience to yours OP. NHS Maternity care is terrible.

I think the worst thing is that they don't involve you - like in Australia, in Canada I was actually spoken to like a human being, involved in decisions about me, the surgeons introduced themselves and checked up on their work later etc.

In the UK, it was like I didn't really exist, I was just a case to be dealt with in the statistically normal manner. The surgeons/anaesthetist didn't introduce themselves or talk to me at all, I was talked over and around at every point. It was bizarre.

And I'm a Brit, so I'll be honest about my experience thanks. (same hospital, eldest had a bad infection and was in for a week, they were absolutely fantastic - apart from one locum nurse I complained about who was rough, and wore a watch!)

My friend had a c section in Australia, I had one here. Her experience was far better than mine.

You dared to criticise the sainted NHS.

Don’t even get me started.

The irony is that because of this attitude, the NHS is taking its last breath on a ventilator. it won’t be around, as we know it, for much longer.

Is your opinion "An Australian Thing"? Or just one women's POV.

When you've worked that out, apply it to Mil.

Sometimes I talk to compatriots who have all kinds of complaints about what NhS offers. I actually prefer NHS style for <lots reasons> but they don't. They want instant epidurals, monthly baby checks, antibiotics at 1st sign of infection (any sort), lots of scans, lots of clinical contact, .... and lots of other unproven-benefits medical attention but it makes them feel safe to get medical attention, and they feel alarmed without it.

You can have whatever opinion you want on this, OP.

It’s an open secret that maternity care on the NHS is poor. But most women leave with a healthy baby and are too tired/overwhelmed to complain.

But I do find every nation is defensive against criticism. I have many friends/family living overseas or who originate from other countries and they will ignore downsides and bristle when challenged about systems/institutions/prices/weather etcetc. I think people just take it personally and it’s best to take it all with a pinch of salt.

Sadly cancer care/ other illnesses care has declined especially after covid and Brexit due to many going back to their own countries. Nurse’s going on strike, I bet the medical staff in Australia get paid a lot more.

I would imagine that my uncle would have preferred to have the cancer on his face removed and not needing plastic surgery for free, rather than having to wait until he was old enough to qualify for help and it had done far more damage to his face. Especially as he got the cancer from building the railways across Australia in the first place. But then he would have been criticising the Church of Australian Healthcare, I guess.

I didn't have any problems getting an epidural on the NHS. Would have preferred to have been able to feel my legs a bit sooner, and it would have been nice to know whether I was pushing or not, but I didn't feel the stitching, either, so might have benefitted from the longer duration.

Horses for courses, I suppose.

There's plenty that needs fixing and reforming about Australian healthcare. Did anyone on the thread suggest there wasn't?

(This post is a great example of what the OP was talking about, tbh...)

Had a baby in Scotland. The NHS here is equally shite. And you’re meant to feel grateful that you have emerged with a live baby, despite the traumatising experience.

could we please have a health service that works where women are allowed to give birth safely and with dignity? Is it too much to ask?

Never mind instant epidurals or monthly baby checks. I would take a GP appointment.

I have just spent six hours at a walk in urgent care centre with my asthmatic DD. It was like a medical field hospital in there. There was a guy vomiting after an opiate OD next to several small children with angry rashes on their faces. With tens of incredibly vulnerable and elderly people standing against the wall because there weren’t enough seats. No one had the faintest idea how long the wait would last. It was genuinely terrifying. And it wasn’t even A&E.

The NHS is still good at acute care and things like cancer but for day to day chronic and community care (and maternity) the standards would shame a hospital in Sub-Saharan Africa.

This isn’t about shaming or bashing the NHS. Everyone knows the HCPs are doing their best under incredibly trying circumstances. But it also isn’t as simple as “It’s all the Tories’ fault”. Yes they have starved the NHS of cash but there are structural and organisational problems no amount of cash will fix.

It is time we faced up to how dangerous the care is. And if it takes an Australian to point this out that’s fine with me.

In my experience people never like their country being criticised - even if they agree in principle. Britain IMO is very traditional, and innovation is blocked because something used to work well (in the past). For example the London Tube used to be world leading, but now its quite old - narrow, dirty, unreliable - because it hasn't been upgraded since the Victorian times (a few new lines have been added). There is also the stiff upper lip attitude mentioned above. British people grumble, but they don't complain.

Exactly this. It is, as I said above, because it's women.

And will people stop conflating English and British - the NHS is UK-wide, and equally rubbish (possibly in different ways) UK-wide.

While this may (does) apply to the NHS, it's not true in other spheres. The UK is actually right up there in certain tech and innovation (or at least was before Brexit) and I am surprised you talk of the Tube when the Elizabeth Line has just opened (albeit late and over budget).

I am generally of the "if it's not broke, don't fiddle with it" persuasion, but the NHS IS broken and DOES need fixing.

It’s neither typically English or generational to ask then ignore/minimise the answer. It’s just a rude thing.