English thing or an english generational thing?

[Winniethepig]

I'm Australian and my partner is
English, I have had two births, one on the NHS and one in Australia on our NHS equivalent.

Tonight our visiting in laws asked me to compare the births, and I had to say all in all the Australian birth was better and the one on the NHS was pretty horrific.

In short the NHS gave me a stretch and sweep without even asking, under the guise of an examination, which was excruciating. Followed by an extremely delayed epidural (I had to be augmented with hormones, and they said I could have the drip but had to wait for the epi, and every doctor and midwife gave me different reasons), only tk have it cut off to push, and then was stitched up with hardly any pain relief.

Compared to Australia, Epidural with 30 mins of asking, Epidural left in for the entire time through to stitches; and no examinations without gas and air or someone talking me through it.

Basically they told me; well can't we agree that your babies are here now, and just draw a line beneath it all? Then MIL said, well I had episiotomies without being asked (in the 80's) and I don't complain.

Honestly, why ask? If you just want to shut it down.

Is this an English thing? Am I supposed to just give a happy response, or is it just that generation?

Is it unreasonable to give an actual honest answer?

Also I had a private op here and I was shocked by the poor conditions - and a private op in Germany and there was no comparison…

Us Brits are very defensive of the NHS and woe betide you have a bad experience and voice it!

Maternity care the world over is fucking appalling but I find in a developed country like the UK, it’s inexcusably bad. There must be a reason - culture, misogyny. And nobody is talking about it.

They don’t do they! I feel like all that clapping nonsense just made it all worse - there was a point where it was practically blaspheming to criticise the NHS. Made me feel very sorry for people who’ve been seriously failed, or had loved ones die at the incompetency at the NHS, and had clapping and over-gratitude shoved in their faces. Some NHS staff are shit, some are downright dangerous and it should be OK to say it.

What I find worrying is just how many maternity HCPs withhold pain relief. That doesn’t happen in any other medical field. Women in excruciating agony, screaming in pain and being told to put up with it for longer because silly woman is just so silly to not understand that pain relief is a bad thing. It’s bullshit. Then you get whole industries dedicated to telling women that they can think their way through the pain or that if they’re very, very, very much in pain they can wear a crown of sage, or some such shit, lest they be an UnWoman.

Then you go to post-natal ward which is like the seventh circle of hell and judging by the many MN threads is visiting men barging their way and being extremely disrespectful and loud to the detriment of other patients. And midwives say absolutely nothing because ‘we just get abuse back if we do’. Funny how they don’t mind telling an agonised mum that no she can’t have pain relief though. It all makes me absolutely furious

It's not an English thing as I've known other nationalities be worse at never accepting that everything isn't superior in their country. I'm English and when a French mum was telling me what was better about their health service I agreed with her that it sounded much better and I wish we could have that too

It’s not an English thing. I’m English, my mil is from NI and does this with everything we disagree on. She very much likes to give her opinion but isn’t open to hearing differing views, it’s not even about disagreeing she does it to shut people up and put them in their place. I don’t think it’s a generational thing either as I know plenty of other people her age that are much more sympathetic and open to discussion and hearing other people out. Some people are just arses 🤷‍♀️

I guess it depends how you said it. People are emotionally attached to the NHS and if a person from another country criticised it I would probably instinctively want to defend it.

saying that, as other have mentioned, NHS midwifery and birth services have been highlighted as problematic and in some cases dangerous over the last few years, and on top of that the whole NHS is underfunded too.

I think it's one of those things where people don't mind criticising our own institutions but take offence at foreigners doing the same. Daft really.

I'm English. Our NHS is shite. It's not functioning, hasn't been for a long time. It was a good idea back in the day of low population and lower life expectancy. Now it's a noose around the neck of whatever government is in charge.

The NHS has a particular problem with women's healthcare, not just maternity services. Anyone who has tried to get issues with periods resolved will tell you that (my particular favourite was the gynecologist who told me that I couldn't possibly know when I'm ovulating and that the extreme pain I experienced on one side at THE SAME TIME every month was bowel related 🙄

It’s a bit like criticising the Catholic Church in Ireland.

Seriously? Maybe back in the 1950's.

Urgh I’m Australian in the UK and I had the same experience. Two horrific births, one of them in suing them for medical negligence due to a completely avoidable error that wasn’t picked up in subsequent appointments. Every time I complain to my husband about how terrible NHS was he kept saying ‘at least it was free’. He knows how badly I was treated and how they’ve messed up (completely preventable) to a point where I almost died. But if I dare to say a bad word about the NHS it’s ‘at least you didn’t die’ and at least it was free. Jesus I would rather not nearly die due to their medical error in the first place!!

I think it's just your inlaws. I had my son in Switzerland via elective c section at 38 weeks due to me being diagnosed with a rare autoimmune disease in my second trimester that impacted my pregnancy. The care was excellent. From the moment I was diagnosed had 3 appointments per week for the rest of my pregnancy, consultant led care. My baby ended up neo natal care post birth and had weekly blood tests for 3 months. I was in hospital for 8 days with almost 1 to 1 midwife care, sharing a room with one other person for half my stay and the rest I spent in my own room. I had a really positive experience despite all the problems I faced.
I am really critical of the NHS as during the 30 years I lived in the UK my autoimmune disease went undetected. I lost a baby at 16 weeks in the UK and the care just wasn't there for me. I would never have another baby in the UK based on my experience.
When I compare the 2 systems with my inlaws I get a similar response to you. Alot of "well I managed without pain relief and I went through this and the kids are fine now as if its normal to have a terrible birth and you should just not complain about it and get on with it".

I had two births in England in the same hospital. One was pretty much as straight forward and pleasant as you can get. The other was horrific.

I'd say your explanation was probably fairly emotive for them to be offended by it.

Were they asking you to compare the births or compare the healthcare systems?

I don't know how they asked but I'd have been expecting an answer about contractions, time between contractions, length of labour, which was quicker or easier, was it less scary second time round ... that kind of thing.

That doesn't seem like the answer you gave to their question. If they'd asked for a comparison of healthcare systems, then fair enough, although it does sound a bit ranty. Why go straight to the Oz/English thing, both in your answer to them and your thread title? Especially the thread title actually .... isn't this more likely something to do with your pil rather than a national trait?

I had 2 kids abroad and one in the UK. If someone asks me to compare the two systems, I do that. If they ask about the births themselves it isn't all that relevant to the answer. One was induced, one was very quick labour with short pushing phase, that kind of thing.

The NHS needs a revolution. I had 2 drastically different childbirths in the UK and almost every friend I have had some form of poor treatment at some point in childbirth.

That it could have been worse treatment, that outcomes were considered "fine", that it was free etc does not all excuse the NHS needs decent funding, politicians that care, more staff and less silencing of those who deserved better.

You can't criticise the NHS tbh

They asked which experience was better. You answered honestly. I don't think it is an English thing or generational thing at all. They were being unreasonable. Some people are a bit protective of what the NHS is supposed to be and while it would be a good system if it had the proper funding/staffing/management, they refuse to admit that is undergoing some major problems at the minute.

I don’t think you can write off an entire health system because you didn’t have a good experience one time.

But that isn't what she did 😆

@OchonAgusOchonOh

Fair enough. Poor choice of metaphor. Principle applies though.

I think you've answered your own question here!

The NHS is a religion that must never be criticised or questioned, don't you know?!

I think a lot of older people have the attitude that we should be grateful for the nhs no matter how shit the care is and if you have a bad birth experience then as long as you and the baby survive it then that’s okay.

As a 2nd gen immigrant there is a weird English thing of thinking because you had it bad, others should too & not complain about it. I don't get it, innovation & progress is a good thing!

I had a pretty good birthing experience on the NHS but I do know a lot of people who didn’t have great experiences. (For which I fully blame the constant underfunding/overloading of the NHS by the fucking Tories- I don’t blame the staff).

The only slightly negative bit of my pregnancy experience was when the labour nurse insisted on giving me a tour of the lovely facilities that were only for women who weren’t high-risk pregnancies, despite me being high-risk. It felt a bit mean to look at these lovely big beds and birthing pools and bouncy balls to sit on- not for you though!

In Britain, especially amongst the older generations, there can be a culture of "stoical suffering". So if something bad happens to you the expectation is that you keep a stiff upper lip and suffer through it without complaining or making a fuss.

To be honest I link the births and the care. Because the state of the care does impact your birth experience and outcomes. But I see your point. Maybe I let my trauma cloud my answer a bit, still sucks being shut down

Post Brexit, it's even more annoying to hear someone from the continent say that they're "from Europe". Last I heard, the UK hadn't actually been banished to a different continent.
Plus the Scots are in my experience very sensitive to any criticism of how things are done in Scotland.

Your experience sounds poor, basic informed consent should have been sought and you are right to complain. That specific team in that hospital might need more resources, retraining, or something else. But you can’t judge or compare services with any accuracy on the basis of one incident.