Private schools and future privilege

[Potsnpans23]

Need to caveat this that I am foreign and grew up in a country that doesn't really have private schools. Was bored this morning and Google a few people from tele, academics and a few others and realised they've all been to private schools (perhaps with a tiny minority who went to a grammar). Got mr thinking- is it that private schools really propel their students to make a success of themselves or is it just privilege shining through and those same kids would have got ahead anyhow? Like if you send an ordinary kid to a private school would they make such a success of themselves?

Also not sure about the connections thing so much now. Firms are super careful to be fair blind cvs diversity etc. Dh v senior in his firm Dd doing law no way could he give her a job would be totally unacceptable.

My dds all girls state school streams ruthlessly is super strict and gets the best results in the county - same as those for the girls private so I have no “push” factor to go private. The outlay would be massive and I don’t think worth it. It’s nuanced though depends on state options available.

You're buying your child an advantage in life. That's the bottom line. Whether that's through smaller class sizes, a broader curriculum or the opportunity to rub shoulders with potential connections it all really amounts to the same thing. Parents who choose this route often say 'I have worked hard to give my child that chance at advancement and that's how I choose to spend my money' and it's difficult to argue with the logic of an individual parent making that choice for their child.

The issue however is what's left in the wake of that decision. If everyone who can pay chooses to opt out there's little incentive to care about what happens to those in state education.

I wonder how many MN'rs who pay for education ever worry about whether their local state school succeeds. And when people don't care about the wider system means that the vast majority of children are impacted.

In our friendship group there is genuinely no difference between those of us that were privately educated and those that weren’t. Actually thinking about it the state educated ones have done objectively better.

Connections affect everything - from careers advice, opportunities for work experience, summer jobs, to internships, industry placements, interviews for graduate training schemes. Connections alone won't cut it, but the effect of the above is cumulative and just having good grades and a good work ethic isn't enough to ensure a level playing field.

Well there are public schools and there are public schools, and there is rampant snobbery at play even within the independent sector. Most public schools are institutions that nobody has heard of that offer small well behaved classes, decent facilities, teachers who give a shit and a few nice to have bolt on extras (outdoor pursuits etc). They do not 'open doors' to plumb jobs due to your old school tie and are lumped with the comps as objects of mockery by the like who attend Harrow, Eton, Marlborough, Shrewsbury, Charterhouse etc I went to a very minor public school and the biggest thing it gave me was a kick up the arse insofar as raising my expectations and nudging me in the direction of university. Most of the parents there were middle class professional types as opposed to Eton style Lord And Lady Snot millionaires. As pointed out already these schools are selective and have zero obligation to keep on disruptive kids.

I agree with @NashvilleQueen's post in general terms but the issue of improving the "local state school" isn't really an issue somewhere like Dulwich. State schools in those areas are bursting with able young people and with committed middle class parents, who are often immigrants.

The private schools are a bit of a safety valve for the overcrowding and are also full of the DC of motivated immigrants.

I live in an adjacent Borough and there is no way the local state primaries could absorb the couple of thousand DC at the private primaries.

The picture at secondary is more complicated as people can, and do, travel long distances/move for certain schools and the state schools that admit on distance have tiny catchments.

Depends on your industry surely? I'm an engineer, there is zero chance I will get onto a project if I can't do the basic job to hand. It does not matter what your old school tie is if you can't pass a technical interview you will not be getting the role. Of course there are connections that are developed during any career but in my experience these largely off the back of being good at your job and not being a twat.

I went to a private school and it destroyed me tbh. Set me off on to the ''not good enough'' train of though.

Things may be different now but I was put in to the bottom stream, named NU as in not university. Soul-crushing. Took me 30 years and some therapy to get it out of me. Not sure it'll ever be completely out of me. I'm white and sound 'posh' or relatively so in my own country (also not the UK)
The reality is that I'm a single parent with a very modest salary and life so I think sometimes my accent or something about me rankles a dislike in the (insecure) people who are around me in my real life. Only in touch with 3 people from school, one has done very well and is very confident in the higher up echelons of society! and I disguise a side of myself when I'm with her. Another is a bit of a hippy so I feel like she's exempt! and the other is like me, leading a conventional life, working, but going to private school never served her. She was in the middle stream though, not so soul-destroying.

Yes, that's true of engineering (although the UK seems to educate a great many foreign engineers) but with sports, the arts, classics, modern foreign languages, the experience would be rather different at e.g. Dulwich College than the comprehensives - not because of lack of talent but because of the curriculum offer, the staff to student ratio and the equipment and facilities available.

Plus sadly some occupations expect you to work for free while you get established.

The problem is that some parents don't give a shit about their children. Very few of these parents will fork out money for private education so they will nearly all go to state schools. They cause problems and ruin the education for the kids who actually want to learn. They need to be expelled at the first opportunity instead of this whole insane "inclusion" mantra.

It's amazing though how when you look into the backgrounds of those children/]families you find reasons for the behaviour.

I've taught in state and private. There are "problem families" in the private sector too but they (and the schools) have more money to throw at the issues. People really shouldn't make the mistake of thinking more money makes people better at parenting or more suitable to do it. It does make therapy more affordable!

DS's private school also makes life easier for their teachers. It's located in a very expensive part of London and the school owns properties locally which they rent to the teachers at an affordable rent. They don't seem to struggle to find and retain good teachers, including shortage areas like maths and physics, perhaps for this reason.

Just to make a quick point- private education almost goes against you these days. Everyone is so woke if you have a hint of a posh accent you aren't hired in some places and actually I think the next PM might be from a comp school. It's like some businesses are punishing the privileged (not all, of course Goldman Sachs and PE firms still hire based on degrees and edu...) but if you're posh and work at a magazine or fashion brand likely you'll be made redundant and replaced with someone less privileged these days.

Florenz you are very naive. Not giving a shit about your children is not confined to the lower echelons. A very wise lovely experienced teacher who worked at state and private came across many sad children at the private schools she worked at whose parents had “outsourced” parenting - paid the money and then limited involvement. I had colleagues of that mindset in the City. And I am on a list for hosting teens constantly get asked to host boarding school kids over the holidays. Just because you pay out doesn’t mean you are a good involved parent.

@iloveburmese3 yes I think you're right, in some professions. But the old boys network is still alive and kicking in some areas. It's often client driven, law firms hire people their clients feel comfortable with and often it's "people like us" especially corporate law.

One senior partner I worked with said being a mother wasn’t her “skill set” so she would pay the best nanny she could to do all that.

I agree. I've found myself almost hiding the fact I went to a top public school - sad really. X

If you think people get hired or win contracts on the basis purely of social connections you are very mistaken.

Have you ever worked in the City - banking, insurance etc? Or had any dealings with the CLA?

How do you think HR departments and procurement departments work?
Usually trying to clear up the mess made by the Sir Bufton Tuftons (or Baroness Mones) in charge.

@TheaBrandt I'm sure that's true but not for the super selectives in my experience and when you're paying a lot of money you take even more of an interest in school.

But I have friends who have so much money that they see their local non selective school almost as their local comp. And it doesn't matter how their DCs do at school as they have trust funds and don't need to work. We're definitely not in that category!

Not in any way saying all private school parents are like that many of my friends and siblings have gone private - but the idea that only one sector of society neglect their children just isn’t correct.

Outsourcing parenting is better than not parenting at all.

Family relatives have a 5000 acre estate between the Midlands and Wales and yes senior level in the city previously eg £400k plus salary

Apologies that was in follow up to someone and misquoted