Private schools and future privilege

[Potsnpans23]

Need to caveat this that I am foreign and grew up in a country that doesn't really have private schools. Was bored this morning and Google a few people from tele, academics and a few others and realised they've all been to private schools (perhaps with a tiny minority who went to a grammar). Got mr thinking- is it that private schools really propel their students to make a success of themselves or is it just privilege shining through and those same kids would have got ahead anyhow? Like if you send an ordinary kid to a private school would they make such a success of themselves?

Not true. Not all Private schools are called Public schools
I think it’s partly privilege and partly do do with academic success and confidence.
I have done well in life but no part of my financial success could be linked to connections I made at school

There are children that travel to the grammars from Dulwich - St Olaves for example has dc from that area but the journey will be up to an hour. It is, admittedly, very hard to get a place there. You are spoilt for choice in Dulwich with good private schools and can also access the central London schools. What about Kingsdale as a state option (appreciate it's a lottery system).

If you have a good comprehensive school use it.
My DC are at Private because that option wasn’t available to us

You have several private options in Dulwich. We live in the area but have opted for state schools as diversity is more important to me than anything else.(also from a country where private schools aren't a thing).

Private schools vary so much. My dd went to an an academic independent school in the north. The girls there work very hard but are really, really normal, not posh at all. The only advantage I can see the school has conferred is the ability to be able to achieve academically in an environment with relatively few behaviour problems.
When people talk about the confidence and connections a private school gives you, I think they’re taking about public schools in the south east ad the famous public schools around the country.

It's a combination of things. If you come from a privileged enough background and your family have connections, you'll probably do very well in life even if you don't go to a top private school. If you're not especially privileged but go to a top private school, the education you get, plus thr extra-curricular opportunities,the general level of expectations and the connections you make may well propel you into a more successful life than you'd otherwise have had.

Having said that, some private schools are shit. I've taught in one outstanding private school, one highly-regarded but not very academic (and imo not that good) one, a grammar school and several comprehensives. Even the better of the comprehensives did not remotely compare with either of the private schools or the grammar school, largely because all of the latter are in one way or another selective. Also, nice schools attract good teachers, especially in a system which is haemmorrhaging teachers.

Two of my friends went to private schools, they both have lovely manners, no qualifications and average jobs.
My DC’s cousins went to private school, their A levels were slightly below my own DC’s grades. All the DC went to similar universities and now all have careers they are happy in.

Like if you send an ordinary kid to a private school would they make such a success of themselves?

Depends upon the school, not all are the same. Small class sizes often help kids with ASD be better supported, private schools often have a strong emphasis on extra-curricular activities, sport and the arts which have been neglected by many state schools ever since the league tables started concentrating on other subjects. General behaviour is often better (I'm sure that chair-throwing isn't half as common as it was in the comp I went to) though some of the less popular private schools are more reluctant to kick out troublemakers than the ones with a waiting list. Plenty of state school pupils do come out with high grades, but what they often lack is confidence.

The school itself/teachers aren’t as important as the child’s peer group and home environment. The majority (not all) rich parents will already be providing an excellent home environment conducive to learning - steady schedule, lots of books, variety of activities, decent diet etc.

What the private school/decent state school then guarantees is the excellent peer/influence group - which research shows is far, far more important than people assume. Much more important than what teachers are at the school or computers to students ratio etc

Probably self selecting. I’m state school but work in an industry dominated by (very clever and able) people who went to private school.

At my state school, there were plenty of kids who clearly couldn’t care less about their education and had no work ethic. I suspect that’s mainly their family circumstances / upbringing. If you have parents willing to spend a small fortune on your education, it’s likely that they’ll promote the value of learning and hard work more generally.

And, yes, there are exceptions of hard working kids/parents in the state system, but in my own experience they were very sadly a minority.

What is not true?

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jun/25/britains-top-jobs-still-in-hands-of-private-school-elite-study-finds
www.gov.uk/government/news/elitism-in-britain-2019
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11082733/Poorer-pupils-earn-20-went-private-school-data-38million-people-shows.html

I think a good private school (they aren't technically all called public schools) gives you confidence and a belief that the world will work for you more than anything else.

There are great state schools (if you happen to live in the right place) that will give a motivated child the same results. But what really helps in life is the belief that the world's your oyster, plus the extracurricular / extra depth to the curriculum that gives you skills and cultural capital.

The smaller class sizes and more structured teaching can also be helpful for kids who are less organised or have mild learning challenges and would easily fall through the net in a huge state school. All being reasonably well, private schooling also reduces the pressure on parents - more is provided, and smaller classes mean the teachers are more attuned to your child, so you don't have to do quite so much in support. If you are stretched this is obviously helpful.

I think it's important not to confuse the vast majority of private schools with the famous few that give you a great network. Most kids in the private sector are at local independent day schools and they won't get that.

Sorry - I didn't mean to quote. But actually I think the PP is falling into the trap of thinking most independent schools deliver the networking that major public schools do. They don't.

@Luredbyapomegranate one of the private selective here are advertising they will not admit those with SEN. So much for helping anyone with mild learning disabilties. It's selective and I'm sure the pushy parents prefer that than diverting resources for their bright kids to those who need extra help.

I think it’s changing

in my local area I see families choosing private schools for social mobility. The families live in cheaper areas and spend on the education (sometimes for the boys of the family only).

The rich white families in the big houses are choosing the good state schools. Even if the kids are clever enough to get into private. And even if parents went to private. One factor is they can buy in the catchments but also they want to be seen as more liberal. Those kids will have many other advantages in music, travel etc. the families socialise and the kids get the contacts etc. Parents also know top universities are recruiting from state schools.

Private school is not a guarantee that a kid will hang out with posh kids but that seems to be what some parents want to buy

@Lndnmummy
You have several private options in Dulwich. We live in the area but have opted for state schools as diversity is more important to me than anything else.(also from a country where private schools aren't a thing)

that’s interesting, but to me that would be prioritising adult politics/outlook over a child’s outlook. I don’t think the majority of children pay that much attention to the race or social economic background of their classmates - or at least not until they are say 14 or 15. What they are more keenly aware of/care about is how well behaved their classmates are, whether they cause trouble, or whether there is much bullying going on.

Ideally it would be great to have both - a truly diverse school with no discipline issues where all children can feel safe to express themselves socially and academically without fear of judgement. But in reality we often have to priotise one or the other, as sadly poverty and social issues often go hand in hand in most western countries.

My children are black so their and mine experiences differ massively from what you describe.

I think it's already been said, but it depends on the school.

I come from a city where a higher than average proportion of children from middle class families go to private school.

I would consider these schools as mostly "bog standard" - parents pay for their offspring to mix with children from families like themselves, definitely better resources, arguably less disruption in class.

Outcomes wise though, the academic destinations and future careers of my naice middle class state primary school contemporaries who went state and private have been broadly the same.

The "old boys" network for these schools is very, very limited.

Dd was at an excellent state primary and very much a ‘quiet middle’; neither a genius nor struggling, but happy enough pootling along with average grades.

At 11 we moved her to a private school, principally for the extra curricular stuff and better facilities (because the local state secondary is actually very good, so we didn’t feel the need to do it for teaching quality reasons).

Suddenly at the private school she is flying and getting A*s in all her exams. Didn’t see that coming at all.

@Lndnmummy
Of course ethnic minorities are more aware of race. I am an ethnic minority myself. But I still think that after a year or two of primary school, pupils still differentiate their classmates far more based on their attitude to study + sporting/academic etc ability than they do on race/cultural background etc. Hench the racial makeup of a school simply isn’t as important to me as the personality and attitude to study of the pupils and their families.

This!

Connections - who you know will always take you further than what you know.

@theworldhas I don't believe private school doesn't have bullying. I went to one in NZ and bullying was rife. Younger boarders had to polish shoes and make beds for the older ones and were thrown into wheelie bins regularly. My DC go to state and I can't say it's got no bullying either. They don't have boarding so at least it's not all day.

I wouldn't call the catchment of my DC comprehensive very diverse. It is more diverse than independent, but most are well off families. I suspect most of the better comps have this type of catchment.

One of DC11 friend went to a independent and the difference I see is that she is doing two modern foreign languages and Latin, two instruments at school, and must participate in one team sport. The girl always has a sense of self confidence so she doesn't need the school to tell here that.

What was your sample and how did you find out what schools they had attended? I think the career path makes a difference. For instance the vast majority of performing arts schools are private (with some government funded places), private schools have better arts provision and offer subsidised places for talented students. Thus you’d expect a higher percentage of people in the arts to
come from private schools. They also work hard to attract the most academic and incentivise them financially. It’s not quite as simple as presuming the school has ‘made’ those pupils successful.
also worth remembering that 20% go to private sixth forms, so they’ve not necessarily gone all the way through private.
and of course as pointed out many people who can afford private are privileged, parents have attributes to be successful, or they have connections. Both independent of school but incredibly important in success of their offspring.
is the state school near you good? London schools are better funded than elsewhere so many state schools are good. In which case don’t pay private. If it’s a failing school/ behaviour problems etc then I’d find the money. Does your child have Sen or special talents? If so might get a better experience in private. You can always consider private for sixth form which is what many do to get the breadth of course choices and smaller classes when the work is more complex.

No they don't.

Also if you go to a state school you are more likely to have black or black mixed teachers.