Private schools and future privilege

[Potsnpans23]

Need to caveat this that I am foreign and grew up in a country that doesn't really have private schools. Was bored this morning and Google a few people from tele, academics and a few others and realised they've all been to private schools (perhaps with a tiny minority who went to a grammar). Got mr thinking- is it that private schools really propel their students to make a success of themselves or is it just privilege shining through and those same kids would have got ahead anyhow? Like if you send an ordinary kid to a private school would they make such a success of themselves?

@tickticksnooze when you say "unqualified" teachers, you suggest they have no qualifications when you really mean they don't have a PGCE or or a B.Ed... but most private schools are very concerned that teachers have a degree or better in the subject they teach. Personally, I would rather they had a degree and experience in the subject than a PGCE, which is the equivalent of the one-year conversion course for people with other academic degrees planning to be lawyers.

Aha, a preemptive invalidation. Because people can’t merely disagree with you, they have to secretly agree you’re right whilst feeling compelled to defend themselves.

Or because it’s a complete generalisation

I can only speak for my area, but I pulled my child out of state school to go private because:

• the state school actively disliked clever kids and did nothing to progress them. The school were obsessed with making the whole class the same level. Good news for the bottom of the class, bad news if you’re clever.
• Many of the state school teachers were often rude and sarcastic to the children and crushed their confidence.
• there were some incidents that made it clear my child was not physically safe there which was again damaging his confidence.
• the school was teaching the children that bad behaviour gets attention and those who are well behaved go nowhere.

At private school:

• there’s an expectation that he will do well academically, and if this isn’t happening he gets extra help
• the teachers are polite and respectful to the children, who learn to expect this from others (and to be polite themselves).
• badly behaved kids get kicked out, well behaved kids get extra status like a cool badge/tie.
• There is a huge focus on developing the children’s confidence.

Of course private school kids go further. But we shouldn’t be talking about ‘privilege’ we should be asking why state schools teach fuck all and crush children’s confidence. I don’t blame the teachers btw it’s decades of incompetent government and inadequate funding.

Competent state schools do well if they stream academically. My 10 form entry comprehensive streamed from Y10, into grammar equivalent classes, and mainstream. The grammar equivalent classes went to Oxbridge, RG and medical school on a level with any independent school. The other eight forms became brickies, nurses, carers, carpenters, hairdressers, fencers, farmhands and electricians. We need them all.

@tickticksnooze is snoozing.

Most are not anywhere near the league if the public schools such as Eton, Harrow, Westminster, etc.

It’s mainly at these public schools connections matter. For the vast majority of other private schools, connections are not more “lucrative” than if you went to a good grammar or comprehensive.
Agree with this.

The children from middle class families in my area will tend to go to 2 of the state comprehensives or the two private schools in the area.

Depending on where you live in our area it can be cheaper to send your child to a private school than to buy in catchment. In Mumsnet world posters would claim that the family paying private fees are awful ladder climbers who want to trample on all the other children, whilst ignoring the fact that to move to the same house in catchment for some state schools would be close to £100k more on the house.

@LolaSmiles yes, the difference between a flat/house in the catchment of our outstanding state school versus outside is at least 100k which at the current rate of interest is basically 200k. Same as the price of putting one kid through private school.

It is connections - once was having a problem with a new manager at a place I freelanced for. Got stuck in a taxi with him after a meeting, discovered we went to the same uni and neighbouring colleges and after that - no more problems, and in fact a big contract came to me. Did I deserve it? I think so, but it is not clear to me that it was not the old school tie thing.

you've glossed over the "super-selective" bit here.

The private school has not only cherry picked the most able, to start with, but also has the ability to expel any child not making the grade.

SO of course their ex students do well - state schools cant just chuck students out if they are going to affect the statistics badly.

The other advantage independent schools has over state is this. Your child is sitting next to a classmate who's parents value education enough to pay for it.

Your child is sitting next to a classmate whose parents value education enough to pay twice for it. That's a lot of the difference.

Only a very few private schools are called public schools. Certainly not the run of the mill independent schools. Merchant Taylors' School, St Paul's School, London, Eton, Shrewsbury, Harrow, Winchester, Rugby, Westminster, and Charterhouse are the only real public schools. The others are independent schools. Girls private schools are not referred to as public school either.

There seems to be a misconception that somehow public schools can take an average or struggling DC and churn them out with top grades.

Public schools are highly selective, so only take the top % of applicants. Therefore they naturally get better than average results and more DC in to top universities.

This.

If you think people get hired or win contracts on the basis purely of social connections you are very mistaken.

A social connection might be beneficial for having a conversation with someone during which an opportunity becomes apparent. Frankly that connection could be from any common factor from sharing a hobby/religion or going to the same coffee shop. People don't ask what school you went to when you meet them for the first time.

You have to be on crack if you think companies hand out contracts for the old school tie. Seriously? Do you live in the real world? I am not even sure this ever happened even a 100 years ago. How do you think HR departments and procurement departments work?

Public schools are less competitive for entry than grammar schools.

Your can't do a PGCE to teach a subject if you don't have an undergraduate degree in it.

One of my friends has degrees in science and technology.

When he did his PGCE he was told he had to be a science teacher because his undergraduate degree was in science. This was even though he had just left the technology sector to become a teacher.

However when he taught at tertiary level in the private sector he was allowed to teach technology.

Incidentally when their have been tutor schemes in state schools they just expect the tutor to have a degree in the subject or a closely aligned subject.

One isn't necessarily better than the other. It is just the state sector has government rules imposed on it to ensure teachers meet a minimum standard. I've heard horror stories of teachers who have been made to cover a subject they struggle with.

state schools cant just chuck students out if they are going to affect the statistics badly.

Some state schools do, or in some cases did until they got caught.

I went to a college that did that and a couple of my nephews went to selective state schools that did that. They didn't expel pupils unless they had to, but made it clear if you weren't meeting their standards you had to leave.

When a kid from hull or blackpool can grow up going to a local school with an average poorer lifestyle, can ever become the prime minister, that will mean the county has made changes to schools. The rich, politicians, leaders of the country, would never send their kids to most schools, because they know private/ public schools will give them that life

I think it’s the privilege from their family, in large part. Now it’s not as easy to hand jobs to your mates (unless it’s Govt PPE contracts…) it’s more aspiration, parents having good jobs and high status so encouraging kids to aim higher, often high caste Asian migrants etc.

It’s that, not the value added of private school that does it.

@lennolin I agree that a poor kid is unlikely to become a PM in the UK. But whether the same middle class kid would do a lot better by going to private school or not.

We have already had PMs on the UK from poor backgrounds. I don't think class is the biggest issue, education certainly is though.

I'm a single mum with a good career. I manage the private school fees via the school plan thing so you pay monthly.

I moved out to Oxfordshire to access the slightly more affordable private schools in Oxford AND to buy a bigger house.

If affordability is the key issue you might need to think a bit broader.

But private school every time.

Another thing to factor in OP, is that when they apply to uni, their grades are contextualised against the average grade profile of their school.

So a student applying from say, Alleyns, with A star, A star, A will be seen as "quite good" because many / most (?) of them will have that grade profile. Whereas a student from a comprehensive applying with exactly the same grades would be seen as "outstanding" because perhaps the average grade profile in that comprehensive is B, B, C. Everything is contextualised at the point of uni admissions.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4699013-southwark-and-lambeth-secondaries?postsby=Cinnamonandcoal hi OP, I think you will find this thread useful. Dulwich is an unusual and very specific area and you need local advice.

Sorry that link is just to the posts of the person who started it - browse the whole thread as there was a lot of useful info about admissions and travel times for your area and adjacent areas.