To not fully understand the outrage of the gender recognition reform?

[iamop]

Leaving my views at the door on this subject....I am just hoping to gain some clarification on one main point for my own information.

Opponents of the gender reform bill claim that this will effect single sex spaces. I was appalled hearing this but I've done some reading. And it would seem (unless I'm getting this wrong) that due to the equality act 2010, a man claiming to be a female or vice versa can already use single sex spaces due to gender identity being a protected characteristic under this act. And as the equality act is a UK wide legislation implemented under labour, this has nothing to do with the Scottish gov. So am I correct in saying, that actually the gender reform bill won't actually affect single sex spaces any more so than the equality act already does?

I completely disagree with rapists etc being able to change genders and therefore force their victims and the courts to call them by a different pronoun. I think the age of 16 to be able to do this is bonkers, and I think the SNP have lost my vote moving forward.

I was just looking for some clarification to my main point above to be explained by people smarter than myself

Thanks

To add on to @babyjellyfish 's excellent post -
thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/

The only reason society is bending over backwards to accommodate them is because they are men.

The long and the short of it.

No one's getting up on their hind legs about f2m trans persons

so we ban ALL trans women from woman's spaces

Yes, that's fine by me. They're male so they don't belong in women's spaces and when it comes to the majority who keep their penises most women don't want them there, so they should stay out.

so we ban ALL trans women from woman's spaces

Yes.

Why do we have same sex spaces to begin with?

Why would being transGENDER impact anyone's rights to SEX segregated spaces?

so we ban ALL trans women from woman's spaces
Yes. Transwomen are a ‘subset’ of men. They are not a ‘subset’ of women.
My (lovely) DH, DF and DB are excluded from women’s single sex spaces because they are men. There should be no ‘special exceptions’ - all men need to be excluded for the privacy, safety and dignity of women and girls where appropriate.

I don't understand how you could even make a policy or a law banning some trans women from women's spaces but not all.

Where do you draw the line and how do you enforce it?

You let the nice ones in and keep the bad ones out? Great, how do we tell which are which?

You let the ones with a GRC in and keep the rest out? Great, are you going to have a bouncer on the door of every toilet checking for GRCs? And how does that help in Scotland once anyone can get a GRC as easy as pie?

You let the ones who have had their penises removed in and keep the intact ones out? Great, are you going to have people doing genital checks on the door of every women only space?

The only logical place to draw the line, and the only rule we have any hope whatsoever of being able to enforce, is to keep ALL males out. No exceptions.

wow no idea why that came out so big- I wouldn't even know how to do that if I tried! I'm not shouting honest!

The internet obviously thought it needed shouting very loudly😂

lol, I asked fot it to be deleted.
My point was- why do trans women want to use female toilets.
Presumably with a penis the gents is easier- having urinals etc.
What is so special about a woman's toilet?

I think purely because It's the women's. And they want to use it. how dare we have a space of our own.

No more no less. .

Of course there are those, and before i get jumped on I appreciate this is only a small fraction of men, but we don't know the difference, that want to use the womens to take their dick picks and then masturbate to the sound of the woman in the next cubicle. I really don't want to be sharing toilets with these ones personally.

I'm not going to DM you because these conversations should not be hidden. Your argument seems to be that most TW do not assault anyone so we should not exclude them from female spaces. But the fact is that most men, whatever their gender identity - if they even have one -do not assault people. So why allow one group of males into the ladies and not every other group of males? TW may feel more vulnerable, but they need to move away from the idea that if they feel something is valid, that is an objective reality.

I've been assaulted by men. I know that most men are not a risk to me. I feel most at risk from those who refuse to respect women's boundaries - such as any male I find in ladies facilities, regardless of what they are wearing.

@Burgoo If your trauma has led you to suspect every trans-woman is a bloke with a giant lurking in the toilet next to you then maybe that is something to work on.

You can fuck right off with that shit. It's basically the same as saying "reframe your trauma"
Why should I be the one who has to pay for therapy to work on it (because the NHS just can't offer what's needed) rather than the trans women working on their whatever it is that makes them believe they are something they aren't. There are literally a handful of men that I trust 100%.
Meeting a male bodied person in what should be a female space automatically starts off my fight/ flight/freeze response.

If trans women are so peaceful people (and I actually believe most of them are) who just want to "pee in peace" then maybe they could be kind enough to accept that women want, need and deserve single sex spaces.

And no, i won't fucking DM you. If you're going to share shitty opinions at least debate them in the open.

Trans people have ALWAYS used women's spaces - this doesn't change that. I suspect that many women on here have shared a changing room with a trans-woman in the past and never even known.

I see this all the time. I think anyone saying this needs to prove it. Because from what I have read, it was only a few decades ago, maybe 90s, maybe 80s, that a male doctor was reported in the USA as telling males to go and use the female toilets.

I think this is another myth that ‘transwomen have always used female single sex spaces’. It sounds good to those who believe extremist activists. The reality is that some may have, but there is a very high likelihood they WERE noticed.

The fuckwittery about ‘you never noticed’ is multi layered.

It firstly makes females out to be gullible fools. ‘Ha ha!!! It was always happening, you just never noticed.’ And it is gaslighting.

Then it ignores the fact that women have a very high likelihood of picking males. Even with breasts. Posters who keep doing this fuckwittery, ignore the cues that have nothing to do with presentation. And everything to do with females decoding a body using gait, hands, feet, facial proportions (unless a male has had their entire face peeled off and shaved and filled - extreme surgery is an understatement). And that doesn’t include the voice.

No . Stop with the misinformation and gaslighting. If posters choose to believe that ‘they’ cannot pick the sex of an adult human male who has not had puberty blockers, that is fine. But stop trying to convince others they can’t.

Of course, females who have had testosterone is a different story. But often it is not hard to pick there too.

TW may feel more vulnerable.

And 2023 really needs to be the year that these TW realise that they are not the vulnerable ones, there is nothing traumatic about a male using the men's toilets and that it's about time they reframed their trauma and vulnerability.

Why would TW feeling vulnerable be more important than women feeling vulnerable?

I think this is another myth that ‘transwomen have always used female single sex spaces’. It sounds good to those who believe extremist activists. The reality is that some may have, but there is a very high likelihood they WERE noticed.

@Helleofabore me and you are of a similar age so we'll have been going out on the weekend to the pubs and clubs at the same time, and without a doubt, and i went to a lot of different places around England, there would be one or two blokes in awful women's clothes and bad makeup. As young women, usually fairly merry, we'd let them use the ladies, we'd pretend they looked good, we'd sympathise that they didn't feel safe in the gents, which to be honest in some of the pubs they wouldn't have been, but never ever did we think they were women.

Outside of the weekend pub crawls I don't remember seeing many transwomen, because there weren't many for starters, and on the occasions where I did see a transwomen in the toilet areas during the day they are always going to the gents.

It's only recently that transwomen have been able to have enough drugs, and surgery to sometimes pass to some people.

Maybe it's just because of my past but I've always been highly aware of a male in my vicinity, no matter how they present themselves.

if children get molested by white men in their hundreds a year, should we ban all white men from school sites "in case" they molest someone? Because it is the same principle here

And burgoo, this is just fucked up logic.

Surely you realise that any adult entering a school site beyond drop off or pick up is dbs checked if they have any potential to have contact with students? Really? You didn’t know this?

If you didn’t, you are probably just showing us that you are not a parent.

So YES!! Burgoo, this already fucking happens in the UK!! Maybe get some perspective outside your own bubble and understand what people are posting.

Because your post is was simply full of misinformation, plenty of falsehoods, and logical fails.

Well done. Someone convinced you that a subset of males should not be treated like every other male. That says so much more about you than anyone else.

if children get molested by white men in their hundreds a year, should we ban all white men from school sites "in case" they molest someone? Because it is the same principle here

It's not the same principle. As you well know.

The same principle would be removing safeguarding for white males and making it easier for them to access these sites.

That would be dumb and dangerous, no?

This happened in Canada in 2014. Toronto Sun

If it happened in today's Scotland, would he be accepted as transgender and rewarded for raping women with a sentence in a women's prison, with a pool of victims who can't get away?

extract
A sexual predator who falsely claimed to be transgender and preyed on women at two Toronto shelters was jailed indefinitely on Wednesday. Justice John McMahon declared Christopher Hambrook — who claimed to be a transgender woman named Jessica — was a dangerous offender. The judge said he imposed the indefinite prison sentence because there’s a great risk that Hambrook will commit more sex crimes and require strict supervision if he returns to the community.

I wonder how Canada would deal with John McMahon now? Bill C16 was passed in 2017, how would they know his claim to be trans was false?

I think this is another myth that ‘transwomen have always used female single sex spaces’. It sounds good to those who believe extremist activists. The reality is that some may have, but there is a very high likelihood they WERE noticed.

The fuckwittery about ‘you never noticed’ is multi layered.

It firstly makes females out to be gullible fools. ‘Ha ha!!! It was always happening, you just never noticed.’ And it is gaslighting.

Then it ignores the fact that women have a very high likelihood of picking males. Even with breasts. Posters who keep doing this fuckwittery, ignore the cues that have nothing to do with presentation. And everything to do with females decoding a body using gait, hands, feet, facial proportions (unless a male has had their entire face peeled off and shaved and filled - extreme surgery is an understatement). And that doesn’t include the voice.

No . Stop with the misinformation and gaslighting. If posters choose to believe that ‘they’ cannot pick the sex of an adult human male who has not had puberty blockers, that is fine. But stop trying to convince others they can’t.

This.

There is so much to unpick from this post, am not sure where to start.

Actually, I’ll start with safeguarding on a site for adults - you know, those people that have more life experience. WTF would you encourage people to DM you with their views re this? That is beyond creepy in this day and age of social media and goes against everything that adults should be warning children about. Never trust someone who encourages you to engage privately online. If you want to discuss your thoughts further, then post them on here and explain your reasoning.

Secondly, do you not realise that all concerns listed here are NOT against the trans community? Do you not realise that the concern is against men? Literally no-one, on any thread I’ve read on various boards on this site, is saying that the trans community are dangerous. They are, quite rightly, pointing out the huge risks with regards to predatory MEN taking advantage of loopholes.

I am not great with tech, so not sure how to highlight and post a single sentence from another post. But your comment re “if your trauma has led to ..” is bloody gross. How dare you. A fair number on here will liken that to a comment made, by a person with a penis, who oversees a rape crisis centre in a Scottish city. So fuck you for insinuating that it is something women should work on. It is so insulting that I’ll never find the words to articulate how gross that comment is.

And the pp who highlighted your “feelings vs knowledge” sentence got it bang on.

There should be no sacred castes, we’ve all learnt over time how well (not) that goes. And it’s very strange how each sacred caste that’s been exposed and condemned over time is mostly caused by … drum roll … men.

Oh, and you’re “not on either side of the debate” comment is a lie. It’s very obvious which side you’re on.

if children get molested by white men in their hundreds a year, should we ban all white men from school sites "in case" they molest someone?

We don’t ban white men from schools, but we do check the criminal record of everyone (male and female) working with children (a measure brought in following male violence towards children) - even in some circumstances checking not just convictions but also cautions and soft intelligence. We put safeguards in place.

Or some women kill their children, therefore we should send a safeguarding officer to every woman's house just in case.

It is vanishingly rare for a woman to kill their own child, which is why when they do there’s such publicity and outrage. However universal services that come into contact with children (education and health) do monitor and raise concerns about any child where there’s an indication they may nor be safe. Again we put safeguards in place.

The issue with this legislation is that there are no safeguards, even with known sexual predators. They can change their gender identity and gain immediate access to female prisons, hospital wards, etc without safeguards in place to protect those women. Or is being raped in prison, by someone serving time for rape, a fitting punishment?

If your trauma has led you to suspect every trans-woman is a bloke with a giant lurking in the toilet next to you then maybe that is something to work on.

In my experience male violence can lead women to be scared of men, not trans identifying men, but men as a sex class. Where can women work on this if there is no space available to them without male presence? I don’t know any such woman who would deny they need to work on the terror caused to them by male violence, how can they do that when group members, staff, even their own counsellor can claim to be a woman regardless of biological sex and the traumatised woman has no way of refusing to work with them?