To think most people probably don't need an ambulance...

[Vwswimmer1]

Just that really. Also so many people that don't realise you still get triaged in an ambulance and can end up in the waiting room with everyone else...

Obviously not about people who can't mobilise or people or genuinely need one but the amount of stories I heard of people calling ambulances when they really don't need to.

And people who need one but can't afford it would be put off by calling at all, and potentially become more ill or even die in the process.

Where I live you pay for a call-out, unless it is for an accident (any type of accident) and I've yet to hear of anyone not calling an ambulance in an emergency. I'm sure it is the last thing on anyone's mind in a crisis.

9/10 DH doesn’t phone an ambulance when I have a seizure (I have epilepsy) The last time was in May this year as I had several in a row and then one in the ambulance. My worst one ever was 9 in a row and they called for a second, more experienced crew, whilst the Police diverted traffic on a roundabout. I was very unwell after that and most definitely needed an ambulance, or two.

@Alexandra2001
I am telling you my DD's experience today, whatever is "supposed" to be happening with you, its not everywhere..

Bc you are saying anecdotally what your DD HCP said happened- a discharge out if hospital and some chat about someone coming into A&E which isn't remarkable,

I have told you that in palliative services we have patients that have been actually harmed seriously in pain and not taken into waiting hospice beds today that have had to be held for the excellent care they can prpvide bc no paramedics and I am one of many HCP in palliative and emergency services in the community. Only 999 calls being dealt with? Well the emergencies don't just occur in 999 calls .. and if you ARE a HCP you would KNOW that. You sound like you have a DD who may be a HCP who won't really be able to talk to you honestly about her day

As I said before I do not understand why you are arguing with me. I am saying yes patients are being harmed by this strike and am on front line. Unless you want to say you are also in front line and none of your patients as a HCP are being harmed then stop arguing on something you really have no experience in. Because my patients today are in too much pain and too uninterested in shenanigans , they just wanted to be safely appropriately cared for by the health service.

Definitely. Not worked in an ambulance call centre but worked in a TV channel call centre years ago. In training, we were told the specific names of two men who called daily and we were told to just say that we couldn’t help unfortunately and get off the phone ASAP. I didn’t believe the trainer but within a week, every single person on the team had spoken to both of them.

@Alexandra2001
See below- on why I don't understand your ignorance of this- Not one of my comments has been anti anything or reductionist like you claim. I don't view you as someone that has any experience in our field as your posts are reductionist. Dying people are also human beings and it's worrying that is unimportant in your replies despite by sharing current terrible experiences

Worked in a care home for a bit. When residents fall we actually couldn’t pick them up. Even if it was blatantly nothing. And even when they are in a less than ideal place like outdoors in a bush. We just had to leave them there and call the ambulance and get blankets etc.

Paramedics didn’t even do anything special when they came. Just literally pulled them up with a hand on elbow situation.

Think it’s mainly an insurance thing.

Friend of DS whose family own three nursing homes. They call for an ambulance for what can turn out to be minor even when they're pretty sure it's not necessary. GPs won't visit anymore and they have to cover themselves. They're covered financially fee wise. The trouble is the residents in hospital do pick up bugs, flu, norovirus, so are in essence bed blocking. The homes can't take them back until they're not a risk to other residents.

On 5th of January this year my late DP collapsed with a brain bleed.

Because I was in shock and also so fucking brainwashed I actually dithered about calling 999 because I didn't want to believe it could be that serious and didn't want to bother emergency services with something potentially not serious ..... those minutes of dithering fortunately had no impact on the long term outcome - he had cancer that had metastised to his lungs liver and brain before showing a symptom.....

The point is, if you are a lay person it can put you in an invidious position - I spent several months wrestling with guilt that my hesitancy might have affected the outcome and didn't get closure till four months after his death.

I'm not stupid, he was my world, but the doubt was there fuelled by the continual narrative that almost nothing is serious enough to call an ambulance.

It's all fucked up from start to finish, and the pontificating is really fucking unhelpful.

@MistressoftheDarkSide I'm so sorry about your DP. I hope now that guilt is shown not to be founded you can grieve in peace. What an awful thing to go through on top of a bereavement.

@LemonSwan I completely get the care home/insurance thing and how frustrating it is but this was an independent living lady who had a crew of carers and chose to call 999. I think this thread has demonstrated the misuse of NHS resources and there are many reasons for this.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

So sorry 😞💐

Yes, I heard that lady too.

I mentioned on another thread yesterday, that where I live in Scotland it is the community alarms teams employed by the local council who are on call to pick up elderly people off the floor as well as providing other non-medical assistance. If an ambulance is required then one will be called. Relatives in England were surprised about this as in their area it was always an ambulance, which seems like a waste of resources.

The council scheme is much better and means that ambulances are not running around picking up elderly people who may well not need an ambulance. One night my DF was picked up off the floor three times! He wasn't injured so no need for paramedics.

This ^^

Far too many people abuse the nhs and it’s going to crumble in to the ground. It makes me so angry 😡 even more so when they have never worked and paid tax and ni

People are calling 999 for ambulances or attending a&e because they can’t a GP appointment.
People can’t get a GP appointment because there aren’t enough GPs or nurse practitioners available.
There aren’t enough GPs or nurse practitioners available because the training costs a bomb and they get paid terribly for what they do.
The training costs the earth and the pay is poor because the government make the decisions around uni fees and NHS pay.

The choices made by our Government are killing these people, not the nurses, not the GPs/ doctors and not the paramedics.

We also have this service where I am in the South west.

The absolute reason why there are no ambulances available for the serious cases mentioned here, is because the majority will be stuck on/attending inappropriate calls. Fact.

I have worked in the service for over 20 years and we all know this. Attending 111 call after 111 call, greeted multiple times a day with ‘we didn’t really want an ambulance but…’. Going to endless jobs on blue lights knowing that the patient is likely to be less ill than yourself. Spending ages on scene safety netting people with completely minor ailments, referring them back to primary care or, most frequently, using good old common sense. All the while the radio is going off asking for someone to clear for uncovered Cat 1’s….. and the poor old 80 year lady old lying on the floor with the broken hip won’t even get a look in as the coughs, ‘chest pains’ ‘fighting for breaths’ will always trump her. And there she lies.

Solutions if it was up to me? Get rid of 111. Replace with the old appointment/ clinician led system of NHS 24. Instantly- 80% of the issues resolved. Completely reform the triage system when calling 999/111. Stop asking leading questions. Far more ability to get the true picture. Try (unlikely but) to have clinicians on hand to supervise calls. Accept that’s it’s impossible to eliminate all risk at all levels. At present the measurable risk to the one individual calling trumps the huge risk to the far wider society; so we are constantly sent ‘just in case’. Meanwhile the risk for everyone else magnifies.

Massive public education programme so that if people really aren’t able to distinguish between minor ailments, coughs and ‘fighting for breath’ , they can access education programmes to increase their knowledge of and ability to self help and/or recognise when extra help is necessary. This may reduce the demand on primary care too for the deluge of self limiting minor ailments they receive.

ha ha what a load of rubbish.... my DD expe is anecdotal but yours is fact?
Your patients were pain free or at least comfortable on Monday/Tuesday but yesterday in agony because they couldn't get to a hospice?
Do you not have pain relief where you are?

Oh come one, end life path ways don't operate like this and in any case, we have a lot more demand for hospice spaces than beds.

anyway, i think i will move on from this with you.... very telling you aren't bothered by the 200 deaths per week that happen without strikes but due to delays.

@Alexandra2001
Your reply is disingenuous and lacking in actual knowledge. I'm not explaining how or why someone right at rapidly deteriorating end of life may suddenly require hospice nursing care. Your comments were sheer uncaring nasty ignorance.
I hope it's not you or your family member left next strike.

One of the main problems is that the issue has 2 parts to it. The NHS and the patient. Only one side can be “controlled” for want of a better word. The government has the power (even if this government is choosing to not use it or use it in ways I don’t agree with) to make changes in the NHS. It can for example scrap 111 and bring back nhs 24 which worked better, it can give nurses more money, it could build convalescent homes but what the government can’t control is the publics behaviour.

public health was hived off into local authorities a few years ago. A good idea in theory as public health is linked so much to poverty, poor housing, obesity etc but it didn’t ring fence the funding. Consequently with local authorities being financial fucked (hello again the government) their budgets are minuscule. Public health education is next to non existent.

The elderly lady who always rang an ambulance when she fell even if she wasn’t hurt is a perfect example. How do you start to change her behaviour so that she doesn’t call 999 which she’s grown up with, knows & feels completely safe with in favour of a specialist falls service? And there are literally millions of elderly people in this country. Even if only 5% of them are ringing ambulances when they fall but aren’t hurt & just need to get up that’s thousands of ambulances even before we get onto people in other age groups or with long term conditions

This. All this.

But 10 years ago, this wasn't an issue, so why is it today? Is it due to staff shortages? Is that because of Brexit?

It was an issue 10 15 20 years ago. It's just reached tipping point

I wonder how much she has to pay every time the carers come out though. With our aging population it would make sense for their to be centrally funded old folk getter uppers. Rather than using up paramedics time on it

I’ve looked this up now. In Scotland about 20% of over 75s are signed up for Telecare and it’s available in all areas. Most areas do charge for the service which costs between about £1.50 and £8.50 per week. I’m not sure if means tested but suspect it probably is, so some people may pay little or nothing.

Superb insight. Thank you for posting this. I agree, 100%