Do violinists make decent money?

[Jazz12]

DS (15) is a bright child. Academically strong and a very passionate violinist.

DH and I have always encouraged him to do well in STEM subjects. We’ve gently steered him in that direction since early childhood. He enjoys computer science, is a decent programmer and also likes biology. He wants to get into Tech (DH and I are in this field), he is also considering Medicine. However, I know he is very passionate about violin.

I understand it’ll be amazing to find a career you enjoy. It’s also equally important to make decent money to afford a good quality of life. House prices, bills everything is out of reach for many people (at least where I live) now. Unfortunately, only some fields pay well.

Do violinists earn well?

Just wanted to hear some perspectives before I talk to DS about it.

Nobody enters those orchestras, let alone pass their trial period, without being truly astonishing.

From what I know of German Stadttheater orchesters, @ProMusician is correct.

All the professional classical musicians I know are teachers.
The playing is very much just a bit they do on the side. One is in an orchestra but the members all have to pay fees to belong! All the money from engagements goes toward the band's costs (rehearsals, etc).

@FetlocksBlowingInTheWind being a professional audio engineer (Tonnmeister course) is just as difficult as becoming a well-paid musician. Definitely not something to do as a backup plan!

Most violinists I know (including ones in big-name ensembles, because as others have said, full-time salaried places are not the norm) have portfolio careers. Teaching (privately, at schools, or university/conservatoire), instrument making, music editing, translating, community music making, music-related admin, web design... and these are top-ability performers. Performing tends to be cobbled together of some orchestra work, chamber music (usually several regular ensembles), and occasion music such as weddings or ceilidhs. All of them have to be very good at life admin and time organisation. It's not impossible to make a living from music, but one should be realistic about the likelihood of getting that salaried position, and be prepared to be inventive about how to generate income streams. On the other hand, if no one were willing to go for it, there wouldn't be any violinists around.

@BootifulLoser fair enough, wasn't suggesting it as a back up plan though! Just another option for a DC who's interested in music and STEM subjects 🤷🏻‍♀️

have a couple of proffessional musicians in my family.

all studied their main instrument to soloist level

1. secondary music/musicology teacher
2. part time position & festival orchestras & freelance culture columnist
3. freelance musician on cruise ships (was stuck on a boat for months in corona quarantine)
4. part time orchestra & conservatoire teacher
5. part time correpetitor (mad piano skills required) & 6th form musicology teacher

oh, and one became a physio therapist specialising in musician's posture issues.

Very interesting thread. It's been fascinating hearing from the professional musicians.

My brother went to the Royal College of Music (pianist) but dropped out and completed a music degree in another university. He didn't want to do anything except music, and he is a professional musician but it's not been easy or straightforward. He has done a lot of music theatre, including being the musical director of shows (not West end but the equivalent in another big UK city). Its long, gruelling hours, not compatible with family life. And once the show is over he's looking for work. He has regular work accompanying a choir. And does weddings /funerals etc at weekends. He only taught during Covid because other work dried up, but was paid a pittance working in a music school.

Me on the other hand, I was as talented as him and studied piano and violin. But I did a degree in something else and got a steady salaried job. I'm in my forties now and I still play both instruments to a reasonable standard. Playing music still brings me much joy. I play in church and am in an amateur orchestra, and just really enjoy them. I have encouraged my children to learn musical instruments too and while they are doing well I am under no illusions as to them being professional musicians. But they may decide to teach music, which is also a very worthwhile career.

One thing others have said which is very true - he should be learning piano as well.

Definitely. I am a freelance violinist. I split my time between teaching and performance. The professional performances such as string quartet work is not that well paid because obviously the fee is split four ways. I do however enjoy solo performances at weddings. I charge £35 per hour for 1-1 lessons privately/ online, but I make most of my money from group tuition in schools.

I charge parents only £6.50 for group violin lessons at school. The groups are 3-4 children and 20 minutes long. I therefore can see up to 12 children in 1 hour. 12 x £6.50 is £78 per hour.

I am self employed so don’t have any holiday or sick pay but I often clear at least £1k per week. Wouldn’t go back to working for the local music service for anything! They charge parents an absolute fortune for music lessons and won’t pay their tutors more than £27 per hour.

another consideration: instrument makers are looking for apprentices

I know a handful of (classical and non-classical) musicians making a decent living from a combination of private school music teaching and miscellaneous performances (bands, weddings, pantos, musicals). What they have in common is outgoing likeable personalities which enable them to network and get gigs and also smooths their path as teachers.

Teaching is a good fallback source of income for many talented musicians who can't pay the bills by playing alone, but it's not for everyone.

The most important thing to do is to consult his teacher to get a realistic assessment of your son's potential. Is he top 1%, or top 0.01%?

No
but we're all becoming poor so might as well play a violin

it all depends on what you prioritise in life really, doesn't it?

Yes, absolutely. That's why parents can provide information and a reality check but it's always got to be their child's decision. Some people have a 'passion', combined with the talent and determination to take one path, some won't. A STEM degree may not be second best for the youngster described, it may be incredibly creative and fulfilling!

I always laugh when people bang on about STEM. Believe it or not the arts are the second biggest contributor to the UK economy after finance. There is also the risk that in 20 years time a lot of STEM jobs will be obsolete due to AI doing them better which is less likely for the arts. However, if he is able to combine Music, Computing and Music Tech then he could well end up in a decent career in music tech. Well worth looking at.

And no most violinists don't make much money although many can pay the bills by teaching part time and playing part time.

Realistically, to make decent money as an orchestral violinist he'd need to be already moving in those circles and be building contacts.

There is a huge huge amount of luck involved in the industry, and also a good deal of nepotism still 100% this. I studied music composition to MA level, got the highest mark in my year at a RG university - my tutor very openly told me he felt I had the greatest potential and raw talent in my year group. The one guy who ended up with an academic career in the field had an academic father who had been networking on his behalf since he was a young teenager (apparently he even went through the appeals procees when he tried and failed to get him into University of Cambridge at 13 years old)! As well as being talented and well connected, you have to be quite willing to brown nose people (some of whom have quite offensive views).

I would continue with the approach you've taken. My Dad was always very pragmatic and encouraged me to study what I love, but to always have other ideas what I could do for work. As it happens, I went into an entirely unrelated field connected to my DH's interests and ended up earning well for our chosen lifestyle. We're planning to retire by the time we're early 50s and I'll hopefully go back to writing music in my spare time without the pressure of having to worry about paying bills.

I'm assuming you'd have to travel a lot. That's something to consider.

There is also the risk that in 20 years time a lot of STEM jobs will be obsolete due to AI doing them better

In practice, every advance in computing and AI proliferates the number of things people can do with them.

Both stem and the arts/'creative industries' can be excellent choices.

I have a friend who does well, in a moderate happy way. Probably earns more than say a teacher, has a lovely life in a job she enjoys. Travels a lot, is often in musicals etc. I’d swap with her happily

Just another thought for a route - if he is interested in a medical side then how about something like music therapy to combine both things to some degree? Not massive pay but satisfying

I didn’t read your previous post before it was deleted so if there was a misunderstanding I apologise.

What I meant (and mentioned in my post) was that nobody walks out of college and into a professional orchestra without any orchestral experience. Yes, people do get the first job they audition for and stay there for life, but they won’t have done so without having ever played in an orchestra, in their entire lives.

I mostly wanted to make the point as some posters were questioning whether young children / teenagers really need to be building a CV up even before deciding whether to become a full-time musician or not. Experience and a good portfolio are a must, and every single orchestra member in this world will have at least played with a local ensemble or for their university orchestra’s end-of-year concert before getting a job. I witness daily how orchestras assess players on trial, and no matter how talented you are as an individual, they will be able to hear immediately if you know how to play as part of a group or not. You need some minimal ensemble skills before being offered an orchestral tenured job.

There is a huge huge amount of luck involved in the industry, and also a good deal of nepotism still

So true. It’s about hard work but also contacts, stars aligning on the day you most need them to, and whether somebody’s cousin/student has already been subbing in so starts the process on the right foot…

@ProMusician I had my post deleted as I worried it could be outing for my friend, and that's not fair on them.

I've been friends with this person a long time. I am merely sharing what they have told me, what is written on their website and what they say in interviews when they talk about their career. And yes, it is unusual to only be with one orchestra, but that's the way things worked out for them.

Having just looked at their website, they began their professional orchestral career touring while still a first year student at Royal Academy of Music. They auditioned for the orchestra they are currently in while still at RAM, and joined after graduating with an ARAM and first class honours.

Next time I see them, I will ask about things prior, who they played with at school etc and update this thread. At the very least,OP might find it useful

😀

This whole discussion baffles me slightly. It's good to take an interest in what your son is doing of course but really none of this is any of your business in the long run - it's his life and he'll have to work it out himself.

Anyone I know who had parents getting overly involved in their career choices ended up in a job they hated and eventually left to do the things they were actually interested in.

I only know one violinist and he is very successful indeed - lead violin for top orchestras. He downsized to a city symphonia because his life was so hectic working in London and abroad. I think it would be very different if you are second fiddle not first.

DD is quite a good musician but she plays to enjoy it. It's always something she can have as a hobby whilst studying something else and it's not something she does want to give her life to

Sorry, this is a real nitpick I know, but I always feel the need to mention when I see this idea - second violins are not lesser. The days when a subpar violinist could join the seconds or the violas are long gone! The audition requirements for the firsts and the seconds are very similar. You need an excellent Mozart concerto (4 or 5 probably) and a romantic concerto (Sibelius, Tchaikovsky, Brahms etc) for both. The excerpts required vary but I’ve had to learn second violin parts for a first violin job and first violin parts (Don Juan anyone?) for a second violin job. Any violinist who has a job in a pro orchestra is excellent, no matter which section they play in.
lecture over!