Do violinists make decent money?

[Jazz12]

DS (15) is a bright child. Academically strong and a very passionate violinist.

DH and I have always encouraged him to do well in STEM subjects. We’ve gently steered him in that direction since early childhood. He enjoys computer science, is a decent programmer and also likes biology. He wants to get into Tech (DH and I are in this field), he is also considering Medicine. However, I know he is very passionate about violin.

I understand it’ll be amazing to find a career you enjoy. It’s also equally important to make decent money to afford a good quality of life. House prices, bills everything is out of reach for many people (at least where I live) now. Unfortunately, only some fields pay well.

Do violinists earn well?

Just wanted to hear some perspectives before I talk to DS about it.

That's great for your brother, but it all depends on what you prioritise in life really, doesn't it?

Some people have a deep need to throw themselves into their passion, and for it to be their whole life. They would not be content doing it on the side as a 'strong interest' or a hobby, like your brother does.

I know artists and musicians who do this, and they may not have much money, but they are some of the richest people I know in terms of the life they live and being fulfilled. Truly.

Some people want/ need more material things and that is OK too. It sounds like your brother has a very good balance and that works for him.

But as for the OP, I don't think you can really know what type of person your child is going to become at 15 years old, and what they might prioritise. I don't think parents should make that decision for their children. I think the parents' job is to equip the child with all the knowledge/ wisdom they have, and then support them as a young adult in whatever decisions they make with that knowledge, and their own experience/ understanding of the world and themselves.

It's also good to remember that life is long and mistakes are not usually irreversible. If he makes a decision he regrets, he will be able to change down the line.

@littlepeas when you say building a CV, do you mean listing concerts sung in, solos, choirs etc?

God no. It's not something you'd do for the money.

I know someone who went into arts administration though and did pretty well. They are mega ambitious and focused though.

Sadly this is absolutely true. I remember being horrified that I was basically writing a CV for my dd and networking - I'm used to it now and it is essential if you want to pursue music. You need to get a bit pointy elbowed too, which is not naturally in my character at all. Get him auditioning for stuff - I don't know much about violin, as it's all about singing for us, but look for scholarships, residential courses, youth orchestras (local and national), junior conservatoire.

Also name changed for this thread, as this is a topic close to my heart. I’m what’s known as a reed player - someone who plays all the wind instruments and I make my living largely in musical theatre. At £200 a night for a show in the west end, it can be reasonably lucrative (and leaves you time during the day for other activities) but pit orchestras are getting smaller. And there are no auditions, ever. It’s all about networking and who you know.

@ProMusician that’s very interesting about Germany. Are there places to look for adverts for jobs? And has Brexit made it more difficult?

Yes - it builds like a CV - sang in this choir with dates, performed this here, worked with this person, awarded this scholarship, did workshop with so and so, went on this tour, etc. Then music qualifications, etc.

I just keep a rough record of everything for when it's time to do her personal statement!

Agreed. I was doing hours of practise every day in secondary school, my parents couldn't afford the type of teaching I needed so my mum (who was a talented pianist) did her best to help me practise in a concentrated way alongside my school violin teacher. We spent hours shut in the dining room together, it was lovely to spend that time together but I was woefully unprepared at music college.

15 is late to decide to pursue a career as a violinist, all my peers had been, as PP said, building a CV from being young children. I agree that following your passions is important but that can't always be professionally, without experiencing it it is hard to appreciate just how elitist and pressured conservatoire training is.

I'm making it sound all bad- it wasn't, it was an excellent environment for the people who had the right preparation and the talent. It might also be ok for someone who wanted to give it a bash and was happy to become a peri teacher if it didn't work out- I wasn't, and would have trained for four years for a career I had no hope of succeeding in if I hadn't left.

I was (not blowing my own trumpet 😆) very good and even my mum and peri teacher who were both reasonably knowledgeable were shocked that I wasn't up to par. The standard of kids at these places is absolutely stellar. Meanwhile, my primary school friend who was not as committed as I was pursued a totally different career but loves her violin, plays in amateur orchestras and gets significantly more joy out of doing it as a hobby than I ever did during professional training. I think she made the better choice, unless you're completely exceptional.

@Reedplayer the usual musicalchairs and muvac for orchestral positions. I have close ties to the West End and its equivalent in Germany (although much, much smaller) is Stuttgart. However I’m not quite sure how it all works over here as I’m based in another area.

As far as I know, Germany will invite you to audition regardless of passport and will then sponsor a visa if you’re hired.

You do have the complication of the German system being required on certain instruments such as the clarinet or a certain brand oh French horn in extra/A category orchestras.

Its a tough world in the performing arts. DS plays bass and picks up work as a pit musician in musical theatre and panto ( Oh yes he does) but its sporadic. He 's looking at a stint on Cruise ships to earn a bit more. I doubt he will make a full time career out of it but he tells me I'll eat my words when he picks up his first Grammy!
We shall see....

It depends. Violin is one of the more popular instruments to play so there’s a lot of competition. If you get an orchestral place it’ll pay the bills but you won’t be rich. My friend was a professional musician, one of his instruments was violin but he wasn’t in an orchestra. He made a living out of it, loved it but it was hard work. He toured constantly and taught and ran a choir.
Having said all that my child is at conservatoire and wants to be a pro (not violin). For him it was the obvious option as he’s terrible at STEM and it’s all he’s ever wanted to do. With music you have to love it and be prepared for it to be hard work and competitive.

Another though op - does he play the piano? It's worth being at least reasonably proficient, as many professional musicians also teach, conduct, accompany.

I have a family member who is a classically trained opera singer, studied to MA level at RNCM and then struggled to find regular work as it’s so competitive, she’s now retrained as a music teacher and sings on the weekends.

Good to hear from some pro's....been a long old journey for DD and every year that goes by I'm astonished at another of her friends or peers dropping out. They're always amazingly talented but it's just. such. a. hard. slog...

Not entirely true re. orchestra salaries.
But it does depend on what kind of orchestra.

A close friend has a salaried position in a world famous orchestra and makes a large amount of money.
Not only is she paid per performance, and the orchestra tours all over the world, they also record soundtracks etc and play on various other things too, all of which are paid and can get royalties too.
She also does a little freelance work too, most recently for a singer who did an audience with type thing on tv.

However, roles in orchestras are hard to come by and competitive to get.
Once someone is hired, they tend to stay for their entire working life.
Often, those whom play in orchestras aren't necessarily the best players either.
This was a shock to find out.

It's also worth nothing that playing in an orchestra is very different from being a lead violinist, so those who tend to gravitate to playing in an orchestra do not want or need to progress.

PS. Should have said they're a violinist and are two years or so into their career. They have only ever played with one orchestra.

If your DS has the ability to study medicine, encourage that. It'll be far, far easier to get into a medicine degree at university (as opposed to a conservatoire) and then to get a job.

Please please don't encourage him into medicine because he has the ability.... it has to be a passion too... I had the ability and the passion to medicine and was heavily encouraged to do it. I have been so horribly broken by doing it because I never had the emotional resilience i needed to protect myself...but I was really good at it. I have finally walked away after 20 years of being bloody miserable. Its a really tough gig if you are not strong enough..

This is simply not true unless you mean ‘professional orchestra’. To win an audition in a world famous orchestra, you’ll have been playing in ensembles from a very early age. County, national youth, if none of those then at least your Conservatoire orchestra and then academies / guest appearances. No world famous orchestra will even invite you to audition unless you have a very strong orchestral portfolio.

Often, those whom play in orchestras aren't necessarily the best players either.
This was a shock to find out.

I’m a regular guest (abo concerts and tours) with Vienna Phil / Berlin Phil / MCO / Orchestre National de France and similar (glad I’ve NC’ed now…). Every single member of those ensembles is a world class musician and they are all incredible artists. Even the lady in the last stand of the 2nd violins who is 64 and a few months off retirement age. Nobody enters those orchestras, let alone pass their trial period, without being truly astonishing. So unless your friend is talking about smaller average orchestras who have a median age of 55+, I wouldn’t really believe them.

And yes, world famous orchestra members do make lots of money. A rank violinist can be paid upwards of 60k a year. Solo oboes and concertmasters will be earning £££k. There are a few hundred positions like these in the world. Only a handful of vacancies open each year. Most are not filled - first hand experience here - because none of them incredible hundreds of applicants have made the cut, in the eyes of these people.

absolutely true, unfortunately.

I was into fine art big time and wanted to do an arts degree. My parents steered me and my siblings towards subjects that pay well. I’m extremely grateful for that today, so are my siblings.

Thanks for sharing this.

A tiny handful of professional violinists can make serious money.

The vast majority make very little. A salaried job in an orchestra pays very little. Teaching pays slightly better but with very little creativity obviously.

Most serious classical musicians have other careers.

It’s entirely possible that @highfidelity‘s friend has only been in one orchestra. I walked into my job straight from conservatoire (although I’ve freelanced with many others) but that was sheer luck and many people I studied with who are much better musicians than I am still haven’t landed salaried jobs.

There is a huge huge amount of luck involved in the industry, and also a good deal of nepotism still, so OP’s son needs to be prepared to deal with that if he decides to go for it. It can be brilliant if it works out.

Unless he is prodigy-level exceptional, i.e. playing concertos from memory to a stunning standard, then he won’t be able to make a great living from it, and even then he’d have to be truly exceptional to make even vaguely decent money.

Certain instruments are also over-subscribed, which makes them even more competitive, and the violin is at the top of that list.

Most good musicians will have a day job, and then earn pin money by being in a professional orchestra and/or chamber group.

Thank you for your post. I do agree it's down to luck rather than sheer talent. My friend has also spoken of diversity hiring to the detriment of talent, along with nepotism too, but they have said that talent now seems to be the focus once more. But, it is all about luck, like so much in life.

So, and to repeat - my friend has only ever been in one orchestra. They were incredibly single-minded about that particular orchestra, and no other orchestra was an option. They got in on their first try and will stay there until retirement.

I know someone who did conservatoire in another orchestra instrument. Getting into professional orchestras is something insane. She is incredibly talented, but that's not enough. You don't just interview/audition for a position and get it - unless you're exceptional, and that's exceptional in relation to your cohort, not to the general public!

If you think of the number of professional orchestras out there, then think about all the music graduates every year, you can see there's a rather large bottleneck. That's before you get to the "traineeship" business a lot of the big orchestras seem to have.

I know quite a few adults who have professional jobs and do music (or drama) at the weekend for fun. They're really good. But they can afford to play for the love of it, rather than to eat. Unless DS is already playing solo with orchestras, then let him slide into STEM if he wants. It may be the best way for him to keep up a love of music, unless he wants to be a music teacher (who would then likely need to play another instrument anyway - quality same for conservatoires, everybody I know who went to one played piano to around Grade 5 too, if not higher).