Do violinists make decent money?

[Jazz12]

DS (15) is a bright child. Academically strong and a very passionate violinist.

DH and I have always encouraged him to do well in STEM subjects. We’ve gently steered him in that direction since early childhood. He enjoys computer science, is a decent programmer and also likes biology. He wants to get into Tech (DH and I are in this field), he is also considering Medicine. However, I know he is very passionate about violin.

I understand it’ll be amazing to find a career you enjoy. It’s also equally important to make decent money to afford a good quality of life. House prices, bills everything is out of reach for many people (at least where I live) now. Unfortunately, only some fields pay well.

Do violinists earn well?

Just wanted to hear some perspectives before I talk to DS about it.

I was extremely artistic as a young person and hugely passionate about (and good at) visual arts.

My parents steered me away from it, thinking I would not make good money from it and would struggle to afford things. They had good intentions so I don't really blamed them, but as a result, my twenties were a bit of a mess.

I did an MSc in something that I was vaguely interested in and let to a good career, but I wasn't all that passionate about, mostly to keep them happy.

I suffered from years of mental health issues, identity crisis, beating myself up about not being able to be what my parents wanted me to be, really struggling with the 9-5 etc.

I ended up not being able to cope with the pressure of that career, but also not having the skills I needed to get a careeer in visual arts. So I got a low paid (minimum wage) job which was unrelated to both sectors, and for several years I was earning next to nothing in something that I had no interest in.

I have now wound my way back to art and make a good living doing something I like.

Please don't discourage your children from doing what they love. You can encourage him to keep his options open and do some STEM subjects at school/ college, but the truth is that people who are passionate about the arts can and do make a good living! It might be that he has to supplement his income with some teaching or something else, but he will be OK.

And the truth is, if he loves it anyway, then he will inevitably wind his way back to it in the end like I did with my art. If you support him he might be able to avoid an identity crisis like mine!

They can make a living if they are among the best of their generation. Is he in the NYO?

A friend led a string section of the NYO some years ago and has a career in that instrument. They survive on it but are not well off, plus its insecure, a mixture of quartets, some soloist work, some orchestral playing, some teaching/education based work.

He enjoys computer science, is a decent programmer and also likes biology. He wants to get into Tech (DH and I are in this field), he is also considering Medicine.

There's nothing here to suggest he'd hate doing a STEM degree or career, or that the parents are coercing him in this direction. Many multi-talented youngsters study and have careers in these areas while maintaining a strong interest in music or other artistic areas. My db was a doctor (now retired) - he was, and still is, an excellent organist. But one with an exceptionally good pension.

It's quite rare for musicians to earn well - I know quite a few of them and the vast majority have their fingers in various pies in order to make ends meet. Most, as a minimum, teach alongside performing. My dd is a talented (classical) singer and hopes to make a go of it - it's not an easy route and is highly competitive. We are building what is essentially a CV already (she's 13...). Is he involved in any youth orchestral programmes? Junior Conservatoire, National Youth Orchestra, etc. A back up plan is also a good idea.

I know a violinist who plays with a big orchestra. It’s a reasonable living but not high earning by any means. She supplements by teaching privately about 7-10 hours a week

At least if he becomes a violinist he’s unlikely to be made irrelevant/redundant by AI.

I'm sorry you had that experience from the other side of the coin though, studying the violin at a conservatoire can have the opposite effect of completely curbing your enthusiasm. I spent the first term having my technique completely re-wired, involving hours of practising playing open strings with an even tone 😆 I was a hugely enthusiastic player before I went (and very disciplined) and haven't picked up my instrument in years now.

I can only speak from my experience, but music college is an exacting and gruelling process at times. My friends who did well were the ones who did vast amount of youth orchestra stuff, had really excellent teaching from a junior conservatoire and were at an absolutely exceptionally high standard when they started. The rest of us who were also really good players struggled.

Someone who is bright, works hard and a decent person will do well in any field.

Do you still believe in Santa too?

I’m a professional string player, conservatoire trained. Out of my close group of ten friends at music college only two of us are still making money from music. I could make a decent wage from it if I wasn’t working part time - (I think I could earn between £40-£50k full time) due to my kids but my work is very niche - when I’m performing I specialise in a particular type of music that pays well, and the majority of my income comes from working in community settings as a musician. This is the thing I am passionate about but has taken me years to build up to a sustainable level. I used to work in professional orchestras but really disliked the hours and culture. I also had to leave England and move to a different part of the uk where the competition is less fierce to get regular work.

@IndigoC actually AI created music is all over eg Spotify.
best way to make money as a violinist is to quit and then become an agent for other violinists with the relationships and knowledge of fixers / orchestras / promoters / venues picked up along the way

most musicians don't make great money. or even have enough reliable work to perform full time without taking on teaching or other bits and pieces in between.

My eldest is seriously considering going to a conservatoire despite 8/9 predictions for everything at GCSE, so lots of other choices available. Her choice ultimately, but I have made sure she knows being a professional musician is precarious, not well paid, and also unsociable hours.
I also worry that even though she's at junior conservatoire she's very firmly in the middle of the pack there. I think she'd have a more fulfilled life doing a decently paid job and keeping up her music on a amateur level but she's 15 so she knows best

I’m a professional musican (NC). I don’t play violin but another orchestral instrument.

Yes and no.

First of all, it depends on what exactly your DS wants to / will end up doing. You can charge £40+ an hour for private tutoring. Weddings and other background music events easily pay £300 for an afternoon, and it’s ‘easy’ work. But, none of this are regular, steady sources of income, especially not in the UK. Keep reading for details.

Classical music is incredibly competitive. You have to be really good to get into a conservatoire. You have to be really amazing to graduate with top marks. You have to be exceptional to then make it to the top of your instrument.

If you aspire to be in a professional orchestra, you need to be one of the best in your generation, and make contacts from day one of your degree. If you want to be a soloist and make a living from it, you need to be the best in the world.

In the UK, only the BBC orchestras are salaried (and maybe Covent Garden, they’ve undergone some changes recently). The rest (LSO, LPO, Royal Philharmonic etc) only pay you when you work. Which might be every night for a month, then nothing for two. You’re technically a member of those ensembles but have no salary.

I do earn a decent living and I only graduated a couple of years ago. How do I make a decent living? I had to move abroad. The sad truth is, in the UK it is almost impossible to earn a decent living, play at the level you are/aspire to be at, and have a life, and a half-decent one at that.

My friends in England are doing a mixture of teaching, performing for various corporate events and weddings, occasional gigs with semi-professional orchestras, the odd LPO/Opera North sub-in. These are extremely talented people who should be working as professionals, full-time. They aren’t, because there is not enough work, and what they do get offered, is often not paid enough.

It is gruelling, they have almost no free time and are constantly underpaid. One friend just worked two full months at a Christmas show for less than £8 an hour. It’s actually depressing. He’s one of the best in his field in the country.

My colleagues and friends in the UK are working constantly. Since Brexit, conditions have become worse. Covid made it all a lot worse too. Many are doing side jobs on the side. Full-time orchestral positions are rare. When they come up, hundreds of applicants sign up - from all over the world. The chances of getting the job are minuscule.

I moved to Germany. This country has 165 full-time professional orchestras, all state-funded and independently-run. This is before we count choirs, theatres, touring companies, musicals, jazz and ballet companies etc. Germany is a country which values and invests in the arts.

I am still in training and earning around €25-30k a year already. Once I get a full time position, this will increase to anything between 45 and 80-90k a year, before extra work on the side (teaching and solo/chamber performing). I am valued, my job is valued in the society and I have time for an actual life too, occasionally. Cost of living is lower, working conditions are so much better, and regulated by law.

So to sum up - yes, music pays well. No, not in the UK, unless you’re willing to work at a different level than your own and eg spend 60 hours a week teaching primary school aged kids, when you’re actually good enough to be playing with the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam or in the ranks of the Opéra de Paris. (Nothing wrong with this, I’m just pointing out the frustrations of many musicians who are unable to make ends meet by doing what they’re good at and what they trained for - because of a lack of opportunities, even paid opportunities at that).

Is your son great? Is your son willing to move at some point in his life? Or would your son be happy doing a music degree and then working in whatever capacity he finds that allows him to pay the bills? Might not be as performing violinist, mind you.

’Professional classical musician’ sounds glamorous but it rarely is. Not in the UK at the current moment, that’s for sure.

It's totally possible to love music without playing professionally.

I have a 'boring' professional job but am a good enough musician to play recreationally with many pro and ex-professional players. I'm glad that music is my passion and not my job, I can enjoy it without struggling to make ends meet like many of the pros I know.

That said if music had been my only interest / talent I think it would have been a really interesting job and I'd have found a way to manage.

Only one person from my school year went down the music career route (northern comprehensive school). A couple of years ago he got an Oscar for composing a movie score. He does well for himself!

He went down music technology route at university.

Wondered the same. I am not musical but my son is working towards grade 7 and been playing violin for 3 years. He is in a youth orchestra. I must say, it's great to attend the youth orchestra concerts - it is like a professional show to me.

Something like BBC Philharmonic is probably 30 to 50k a year depending if they are 1st, 2nd, 3rd violinist. But to get to that level must be extremely competitive.

Does anyone know what happens after grade 8 if the player is still a child? Do they just play with their orchestra, learn new pieces and refine their skills off their own back.

My son has done some compositions. My wife seems to think this can be profitable but I guess it's like any musician, you could compose something that will make you a millionaire any day but it probably doesn't happen for many.

@blackandwhitecat123 Yes I have heard similar as well from friends who are musicians. Sorry you went through that as well! :(

OP, you have two stories there from me and @blackandwhitecat123 from people who went in opposite directions with the arts and it didn't work out great for either of us.

I think the conclusion is that you should support your child in what he decides to do, after giving him all the information you know/ can find out.

The important thing is that it is your son's decision. My experience of blaming my parents has been really unpleasant. I think I would have found it easier to live with having gone to art school and it not worked out, knowing that it had been my own decision. Feeling pushed by my parents for it to then not work out just results in feelings of resentment and blame.

Talk it all through with him, tell him what you know, but support him in what he decides.

NC for this as it’s going to be very outing!
You’ve had lots of good opinions here, especially from @Alittlenonsensenowandthen who is right to bring up the level your DS should be at to seriously consider a career in music.
I’m going to go slightly against some of the more negative posts and say that while being a professional musician very rarely pays well, it can pay well enough to have a decent standard of living.

I’m a section violinist in one of the BBC orchestras and we make between 34,000 and 50,000 in a massively generalised way - obviously it depends on London weighting, position, time in job etc. It’s not an enormous salary but it is all right. We can also freelance and teach on the side. As a pp said teaching can pay very well if you have a good reputation - my old teacher charges upwards of £150 for an hour and I know some who charge £300! But even a normal player with a conservatoire education could look at £40ph minimum.

Famous soloists like Vengerov or Ehnes can obviously choose their rate, but I suspect the lower level soloists often struggle as do many chamber musicians. What kind of playing does your son enjoy? Does he want to play in an orchestra or a quartet? Unfortunately if his ambitions are to a solo career it’s probably unlikely to happen - at this stage he would’ve been in international competitions etc.

Sorry this has been a bit scattered, but essentially I would first look at whether your DS would be able to make it in the industry, which can be brutally competitive, and then start thinking about whether it’s a wise decision. PM me if you have any questions!

PS and wherever you are in the world, hours are brutal, mental health declines rapidly if you don’t learn early enough how to deal with it all, and if you want a family you have to seriously reconsider what and how you are doing your job.

I started competing internationally at 9 which is part of what allowed me to become top of my field. I also work non-stop (albeit paid, which I wouldn’t be in the UK until the age of 28-30) and I’ve had two weekends off in the last 5 months. I travel a lot, which I like, but it’s tiring. I am regularly rehearsing 9am-1pm, then playing 6-11pm. I absolutely love it, but it’s exhausting and most people need lots of therapy because it’s not an easy life, and a very competitive industry.

I come from a family of live performers across a number of fields.

DO NOT underestimate how exceptionally good you have to be to attain an orchestra position.

I work in an adjacent field, and I see a lot of young people who are passionate, and pretty talented, and well-trained. That is not enough. For the performing arts, to make a decent, secure living, you have to be in the 1% of the 1%

If your DS has the ability to study medicine, encourage that. It'll be far, far easier to get into a medicine degree at university (as opposed to a conservatoire) and then to get a job.

@Towcester After grade 8 you can do the music college diplomas and associate diplomas.

DD2 string player at Royal College Music having attended a specialist Music School from age of 9, v good player, perfectly likely to do well, but unlikely to ever earn more than 30k for a good few years and that would only be if she was very very very lucky and landed a seat in a good orchestra. She might be able to top up with teaching, session work and small ensemble but the effort required to keep all that in the air is immense. There are plenty of Conservatoire grads sitting behind desks doing Arts Admin jobs, 20-30k. Some of them were very good musicians too, but competition is fierce and you still need to keep practicing -it's really hard....
Back at her music school there were house assistants on barely above minimum wage all Conservatoire trained, all BMus, MA etc etc.... They were there because it came rent included and there were practice rooms I guess.
It's all a worry... but it was pretty obviously what she was going to do from the first time she picked up a violin. 🤷‍♀️

Gosh he's only 15, does he really need to decide one way or the other yet? Yes music is a tough field to go into for various reasons but so is medicine, so are a lot of careers. And actually if you're purely thinking in monetary terms, for the hours put in/level of academic attainment required to get there, I'm not sure medicine is the best bet either, not in the UK anyway, certain specialisms have the opportunity to earn the megabucks in private practice but even for the higher earners it would be a very long hard slog (20 years + probably of very hard work) to get there and absolutely miserable if you didn't at least feel drawn to the work and enjoy it in some regards. I really think it's such a mistake to pin your teens down to a career path so early on (different of course if they feel a strong passion for something of their own accord), they grow and change so much into their early adulthood and the world of work and the multitude of different options open to them is evolving quicker than ever too.

At his age I'd focus on working hard at school, getting the best GCSE results he can and picking for A Levels the subjects he enjoys and does best in. He should certainly continue playing the violin and working hard at that too, it will be a good stress reliever and diversion from academic work if nothing else, playing in orchestras and bands is great socially for teens and the confidence boost from performing is nice too. And as others have said Music A Level can be a really nice choice alongside sciences and this would keep his options well open for a multitude of different university options and career paths later down the line...

Gosh he's only 15, does he really need to decide one way or the other yet?

If he’s dead set on music then yes, it would be smart to decide now. Musicians start building their CVs in primary school, it’s a bit like professional sportspeople.

If he genuinely doesn’t mind one way or another, and isn’t aspiring to the LSO or BBCSO, then he’s got time.

From DD's experience, I'd add everything @ProMusician says is true btw.

My little brother wasn’t paid much in the orchestra and was also in a folk band on the side.
But busking in our local cathedral city was generally an excellent earner for him, whether in a string quartet or alone.
You have to be a particular personality to live like that, I think, not a worrier. And if you have a family, I think your partner might need to have a regular salary coming in.