Sorry Xenia...

[duchesse]

...for starting that thread when I didn't believe you existed (and I genuinely didn't). I've done some proper research now, and realise that you are real person with fantastic real achievement. I apologise unreservedly for my previous thread, which was genuinely not designed to get at you since I did not believe you existed. I am aghast and incredibly impressed at how much you have achieved, and look forward to sparring with you again some time...

Elfriend - I once shared a flat with an astro-engineering student who said - with a straight face - that the reason they didn't let women become fighter pilots is that they "leak" at high G. Makes you wonder how they're padding the female shuttle crew?

Interesting, Anna. If nounous are as prevalent and unqualified as you describe, wouldn't the result show up in the happiness/wellbeing of the child? If the child is not thriving, do their parents ignore it?

I must remember to speak to my Parisian colleague about what he does for childcare, as he and his wife are high-flying lawyers and, from his conversations, enthusiastic and loving parents of 2 little girls.

blueshoes - they will have one or more nounous, and perhaps a student after school for homework who they may or may not have actually met. It is not really considered necessary to meet the people who care for your children in person...

That was only slightly tongue-in-cheek, because I do know of scenarios like the one I describe .

I think French/Parisian concepts of a thriving child are somewhat different to English concepts of a thriving child. You know, as long as the children are getting 18/20 at school (pretty easy, standards aren't high for clever offspring of clever parents), doing tennis, ballet and music lessons satisfactorily and learning to ski in the holidays, tout va bien. And if tout ne va pas bien, there is, of course, le psy .

Childcare cost in the UK is high and to be quite honest so it should be. You are leaving your children with these people so why shouldn't you pay for it? My mother worked in a nursery (which made a lot of money) however she was only paid £4.00 per hour, despite being qualified. She used to laugh at how some parents complained of the high cost whilst driving up in their Mercedes. Some used to ask her if the nursery was open on Christmas day!!

Having children is expensive on many levels...however if you wish to put your children in full/part-time child care then perhaps it isnt worth many mothers/fathers working. I dont see though that it necessarily follows that many should complain about the high cost of childcare. I know some mothers who complain about the high cost of childcare, who live in expensive houses and have their nails done once a fortnight. I have no problem if this is the kind of lifestyle that they want, but why always make out you are so hard up because of child care costs....they're not....they are hard up because of the lifestyle they have chosen.

I am all for women choosing what they want to do.....but what gets on my nerves is when they moan about it.. Xenia is right about what choices you make in life. I was on a low salary for years and for me it was not worth going back to work. I wanted to go back and have a decent job, with a decent salary, so I put myself through uni......which is great because I now can afford childcare. And I dont moan about the cost of it.

So does this affect French adults when they grow up - lack of proper care when children? I wonder if most people in a culture are brought up one way and someone brings up their own chid differently does it then make it harder for that child to fit in because say it's the only child who wasn't sent to board at 7 (UK, old days) or only child who had loving parents or whatever.

As we had so many children it was always cheaper to have them looked after here at home.

In some countries childcare is cheaper - I was talking to someone in Finland. The annual childcare was I think one tenth the cost of the UK but tax was over 60%.

Xenia - the concept of "proper care" is different... but yes, I do think that French adults in the circles I move in (professionals, business people) often had a very tough childhood by some measures when I compare it with my own and that of my English contemporaries. Hence, perhaps, the very thriving shrink industry.

My partner and his brother were sent away on colonies de vacances (camp, ie without parents) every holiday except the summer from when they were 3 and 5 , and that was completely standard among their contemporaries. I could give plenty of other examples...

Yesterday I was at the check out at La Grande Epicerie and the woman ahead of me in the queue struck up conversation. She was a retired French lady who had worked as a scientist for Boots, so had travelled extensively to England. I asked her whether she was enjoying her retirement/grandchildren and she said - "Oh no, I'm bored - but of course here in France we don't have those lovely houses and all those domestic and gardening activities that you English can enjoy".

The infrastructure of life is different here. So people turn out differently too.

karen999 - i am not complaining about the high cost of childcare, i am complaining about it being so difficult to work in any kind of professional role due to the cost of the childcare.

I know it sounds like the same thing but it isn't actually. If the govt wants women working they need to do something to subsidise childcare. I am sure in the next 10 years it will become tax deductible.

When you work it out per hour, it is quite reasonable. I have nothing but admiration and respect for the nursery staff - and think they are underpaid. It is just that wanting to work, and the govt/corporations not wanting to lose skilled talent, is not doing anything to make it easier.

And some employers do provide a lot of help where it is the only way to keep good staff, some off 3 months full paid leave etc. too.
I think the French can be more kind of hard because they suffered that emotional disturbance as children may be.

I think I would be worried about a relationship with a man who had had that kind of early trauma age 3 and sent away for holidays.

Xenia - some people get over their childhoods (or are just born more resiliant) and some don't - my partner's brother did not survive but my partner is pretty down-to-earth. He certainly, however, does not wish to repeat the excesses of his own generation and childhood. He's a very, very, VERY talkative person - not a bottler-upper in any shape or form. So that probably helped him get a lot of perspective

Oh dont worry poppet

It's taken you almost 16 years to acknowledge the apology 🤣

Lol.