Sorry Xenia...

[duchesse]

...for starting that thread when I didn't believe you existed (and I genuinely didn't). I've done some proper research now, and realise that you are real person with fantastic real achievement. I apologise unreservedly for my previous thread, which was genuinely not designed to get at you since I did not believe you existed. I am aghast and incredibly impressed at how much you have achieved, and look forward to sparring with you again some time...

I have a friend who is just about to have her second child. She will be a WOHM on a relatively (well very) low wage. But she enjoys her job, and is bloody good at it. She tells me she would rather stay at home but cannot afford too. I cannot see how she works that out tbh - two children in childcare will just about take ALL of her wages. I guess she is made to feel guilty too for her choice. It would be nice if she could say - my career is important to me, i dont want to give it up, as i think that is a fair decision.

She is funny. Hilarious.

"...just as I don't care if women say to me I ought to be home with my children."

(sighs and wipes an eye).

You've been telling this woman that she ought to stay at home with her children, MrsM, haven't you? Come on, be honest? THAT's exactly what you think they need, isn't it?

You spotted her superior emotional intelligence from her paypacket, didn't you? Just admit it.

(sighs)

Oh, me!

(chortles her way back to wiping under the fridge muttering under breath)

'Surely it's common sense...'

(dissolves again)

They are important issues to consider. I do think with a few exceptions women who earn over £100k are less likely to give up work and tend to be better educated than those on £12k. Now you can obviously find examples where that is not so but a general survey of most would show those over £100k probably better educated and probably higher IQ than most of those on £12k.

If you are organised to earn that and to work and manage child care with your husbnd then you are probably reasonably emotionally sorted, not suffering from PND, depression or have other mental health issues. If you can just about get dressed at home and the trip to the shops is a challenge with the baby you might be having more emotional problems and be less able to cope with the children and not be in general as "sorted" and organised and able to cope with life in general if you are a housewife.

But it's a fairly pointless debate. It just annoys me you never see those points put - that working mothers may well be a lot better mothers than housewives. It's good to challenge orthodoxy particularly when it's sexist orthodoxy designed to keep women at home.

Thank you IB. I think I should be getting paid too...

LOL at Pankhurst, esp. tillworking titwit

Xenia, you really are talking the most egregious shite.

(leaps up at the sound of sexist orthodoxy being challenges and runs back into room waving half-dried carrot that she found under the SMEG)

OK.

Challenge the sexist orthodoxy by asking why the vast majority of people earning over 100K have a dick, not greater intelligence, higher education, more insight into child psychology or anything else that better qualifies them.

Challenge why the majority of debates between women are about which woman is better than the other, rather than why we are still paid less than the XYs for doing work of equal or far more impressive value.

Once you've done that, challenge the sexist orthodoxy that says you're doing it wrong whether you stay at home or go out to work.

By not promoting one side of that coin over the other.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

(waves carrot madly)

(Chains herself to pankhurst's leg, Suffragette style)

Yes, yes, we demand answers!

Actually Xenia has a point. I have spent the last year on maternity leave. Some days I did find it hard to get dressed, go to the shops and was often miserable when DP got home. It was he who pointed out to me that I needed to go back to work.

I work better under pressure and when I have loads to do/needs doing. I was a far better mother when I was working and studying. The more I have to do the easier it is for me to organise everything and set aside time for everyone.

I have spend the last year on ML and what it has taken me to do in that year I could have done in 1 week when I was working/studying.

I think the point about how much you earn = how intelligent you are is a bit simplistic. I have known women who have earned a great deal of money but are not that intelligent. In contrast I know women who earn little but who are extremely intelligent. I think it comes down to what you want from life. If you want to stay at home, brilliant....equally if you want to work then why not?

As long as you are happy and satisfied in what you do then I cannot see a problem.

What's wrong with being sexy?

is this a come on, mrsruffallo?

we've already got bondage going on

(looks down at mrsmattie and gives a little wave of the carrot)

PW - egregious shite - LOL - what a fabulous expression - didn't know a SAHM could be either funny or intelligent - imagine that

sure is, spankhurst

shhhhh that's my naked prozzy webalias!!!!

don't OUT me or I'll go down the hierarchy

Xenia

You have a simple equation:

The cleverer you are = the more money you make

This is so far from being true. Lots of clever people do stay on at university, do doctorates, post-doctorates, teach etc. They are all pretty clever people who are going to spend their lives working for what for you would be diddley squat cubed.

Many local business people (chain stores, bingo hall owners etc) tend to be really pretty wealthy despite having little in the way of natural intelligence (I am speaking of two people I know btw) they have considerable natural shrewdness so they can do well in business.

I think that to do well in a professional career (law, medicine, accountancy) one does have to be pretty clever. If you are in those professions, that are well-paid, then you would not give them up to be a SAHM because the chances are that if you are over 35 you will be earning over £100k a year - time out means time getting de-skilled - etc.

From your perspective in your niche area what you say is largely accurate, but the trouble is that it ignores the world outside Xenia's world.

I never said there was anything wrong with being sexy. In fact that's another thing I've got against some housewives on MN when they seem to assume it's fine not to have sex with your husband for month after month. It is never fine.

Actually there is nothing like busting balls in the Boardroom to make me feel sexy...

Xenia, what percentage of the population do you think earns £100k and what percentage of the female population do you thinks earns £100k??

As it happens, I earnt a multitude of that number and I was perfectly happy to walk away from it, like a lot of my peers. Life goes in stages, right now we are all happy with me being at home. That will obviously change at some point and I'll go back to money making.

Why does the debate always seem to end up forcing women to choose to fit into a man's world - whether by working according to male rules (and the subsequent disadvantages) or staying home according to the same rules but different disadvantages...

If we can't beat em join em?

Surely there is something more to hope for? We are not asking enough and are denying all that women might really offer and gain if the world truly operated on equal terms.

I'm sure Xenia doesn't need or care about my support here. She seems more than able to look after herself. However, I can't see why some of you are getting so heated about what she's saying. Even if you don't agree, so what? I don't recall ever reading anything she posted that "told" any woman how to live her life. X works, very successfully it seems (although I appear to have missed all the googling you lot have done on her). Good on her. It works for her, with her set-up, and her kids clearly have thrived. Other posters are SAHMs and their kids thrive on that. Others of us do a bit of both. Some of our kids are OK and others might be out vandalising bus shelters. I can feel another glass of wine coming on........

But also Xenia women who earn £100k have more to bloody miss if they do not go back, if they and their hubs have a whacking mortgage, then they cannot afford to have her quit without SERIOUSLY downsizing their lifestyle, which at that income level would be a big comedown.

I am not fitting into a mans world. I am fitting into mine. Tbh I never compete with men. Whats the point? They are not me. Other women are not me. I compete with myself. It is really the only worthwhile person to compete with, and it is competition in the healthy sense.

I dont see how it always comes down to the men/women argument......

Clam - eh?

Xenia's stock response to most problems is "get a job", or "get a better job".

Which is fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion blah blah.

But to say she doesn't tell other people how they should live their life is just plain wrong.

Indeed the word "duty" is often wielded I think.

I'm pretty sure Xenia recently told someone who was suffering from clinical depression to 'get a job'. PMSL. It's like the Thatcher years all over again.

Take other jobs then - the girl managing Tesco is morelikely to return to work than the girl on the till and she will usually be cleverer. Surely this applies across all sectors. The university cleaners will earn less and probably not be as clever as the senior academics earning the starting salaries of some new graduates. Of course at the bottom end the graph would change again because they you're both working to feed the children even it's the night shift at the local care home.

I don't know what % of women earn £100k. It's not a massive sum. It's only what most GPs earn but obviously I appreciate that the average wage is £22k or something and many people earn less than average. Nothing to stop women aiming to earn a lot more however. It's fun and as someone said can be sexy too.