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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

For all those who support the strikes

612 replies

chopc · 16/12/2022 06:03

Where do you think the money will come from for all the pay rises? Are you personally willing to pay more tax?
We all saw during the pandemic it is the poorly paid essential workers that kept the country going and they totally deserve more money than the claps they got. However will YOU be prepared to contribute to the pot ?

If not where do you think the govn will find more money from?

OP posts:
dancingqueen123 · 16/12/2022 10:54

Pleasepleasepleaseno · 16/12/2022 06:22

No personally I can't afford to pay more tax sorry. I work for a charity. We're very low paid and overworked too. Only we don't have a union. And everyone seems ro forget about us. It's all public sector workers vs private. Nobody even remembers there's a 3rd sector in these threads.

Yup.

HereWeGoAgainnnn · 16/12/2022 10:55

Dotjones · 16/12/2022 10:53

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been pointed out, but those of you willing to pay more tax to support nurses and other workers are already free to contribute more to the government's bank balance. All you need to do is send a payment to HMRC and they will happily receive your contribution.

I wonder how many of those who say they're happy to pay more tax are actually doing so?

Exactly
People Don't realise this
Happy to pay more tax?? Okay, do it then?

dancingqueen123 · 16/12/2022 10:55

The third sector are usually (but not always) delivering services more efficiently and at less cost than the public sector.
*
the amounts paid to charities are a pittance compared to taxation*

This!!!!

MarshaBradyo · 16/12/2022 10:56

Dotjones · 16/12/2022 10:53

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been pointed out, but those of you willing to pay more tax to support nurses and other workers are already free to contribute more to the government's bank balance. All you need to do is send a payment to HMRC and they will happily receive your contribution.

I wonder how many of those who say they're happy to pay more tax are actually doing so?

yes to this.

HereWeGoAgainnnn · 16/12/2022 10:58

dancingqueen123 · 16/12/2022 10:54

Yup.

I also work for a charity and we received a pay increase this year (of which I am grateful to receive anything) but it was very low - it doesnt cover inflation however, we provide much needed social services. We also have a recruitment issue where we cant attract support workers. We cant support social workers because the councils pay alot more yet child : adult ratio is higher. So alot of staff who leave to work for the council don't realise that they will work longer hours with more work.

Now, we dont have everyone here shouting to increase wages. I'm not saying I am against all of this but we have to be real. Money doesnt grow on trees. Doesnt everyone want a good NHS model / a plan that works? The NHS is management horrendously - money is a short term issue.,

Fluffyhoglets · 16/12/2022 10:59

I'd be happy to pay more tax to fund nurses pay rises.
I'm not happy to pay more tax because this govt would bung it to their mates. Theres always money for that sort of thing.

Some people have got very rich off the back of taxpayers in this country and its not the public sector workers!

BirmaBrite · 16/12/2022 11:01

So can anyone confirm for me that for the 9.8% that I pay towards my NHS pension each month out of my wage, another 25% is being put into my actual pension pot at the same time ? I could have sworn it was a lot lower figure, still not bad, but nowhere near an additional 25% ?

Interviewnamechange · 16/12/2022 11:01

@HereWeGoAgainnnn

The issue is, no sane adult is going to continue working for 20% less wages than a nurse 12 years ago. The work load has more than doubled, it now requires a degree and senior nurses are prescribing at the level of a doctor.

Nurses are leaving the profession in such high numbers that it is causing a tidal wave of collapse. At least if the Job was incentivised well, nurses could somewhat justify putting themselves through such stress. As it is, they are stressed at work and now stressed at home because they can’t afford to live at a somewhat decent standard.

There is only so much good will the NHS can run on.

WatchoRulo · 16/12/2022 11:02

HereWeGoAgainnnn · 16/12/2022 10:55

Exactly
People Don't realise this
Happy to pay more tax?? Okay, do it then?

It needs to be a proper electoral policy though. I am not giving this government more tax so they can shaft the nurses and give the money to Tory Peers and donors, the cunts.

ClangingBell · 16/12/2022 11:07

RosesAndHellebores · 16/12/2022 10:46

@ClangingBell it's a pity you aren't able to present an argument without resorting to foul language. It says rather a lot in relation to critical thinking.

Women, are those most heavily impacted by motherhood regardless of any feminist argument. I believe in absolute equality. Couples whether mixed sex or same sex are responsible for their children, decided upon jointly, even if not biologically 50% of each partner. Ultimately, it's one partner, usually female who bears the brunt of relationship breakdown and the financial burden thereof. Some women are also wired to be "mothers", others are not. In an ideal world partners should be able to curate careers whereby they each work a four day week to reduce childcare. That may be one of the benefits of the hybrid working patterns that will change working patterns.

Regrettably at the end of the day couples are responsible for their children. The burden needs to be shared equally but even in 2021 the only single fathers I have known have been widowers where the children's mother has died tragically young. This illustrates perfectly why women need to plan for their security and think ahead.

But as I said before your exceptionally rude post this is a subject for a different thread.

haha, I knew you’d criticise the swearing. But when you talk such absolute fucking nonsense, I don’t see any need to be polite. I assume you’re a Thatcherite who doesn’t believe society contributes to or should mitigate against any of the things you describe? If childcare was free, single parents wouldn’t have the massive economic disadvantage they currently do. I guess I should have just planned for my husband dying and leaving me with two young children and that society shouldn’t provide any supporting structures or finance to help people like me? Nice.

bakewellbride · 16/12/2022 11:09

The money could very easily be available. Pay cuts to politicians and no more blowing cash on stupid things like a private jet with a fucking Union Jack on just off the top of my head plus what lots of other posters have said here.

poetryandwine · 16/12/2022 11:12

@Dotjones and @MarshaBradyo you are criticising those of us not voluntarily paying more taxes. But as many of us have indicated, as much as we are willing to do that, we are furious at the wasteful, unethical and incompetent spending of successive Tory governments which easily could fund adequate salaries and benefits for the public sector. We have listed these above.

Voluntary payments cannot be ring fenced. As long as the government refuses to raise salaries to a proper level they are likely to fund more waste, incompetence and unethical spending

WatchoRulo · 16/12/2022 11:13

it's a pity you aren't able to present an argument without resorting to foul language. It says rather a lot in relation to critical thinking.
No it doesn't - there is zero correlation between critical thinking ability and swearing - except in a ridiculously pompous sneering attempt to discredit people. Some of the cleverest people I know swear like fuckery.

girlmom21 · 16/12/2022 11:15

it's a pity you aren't able to present an argument without resorting to foul language.

Anyone wanna play pin the tail on the dickhead?

Isitsixoclockalready · 16/12/2022 11:17

chopc · 16/12/2022 06:03

Where do you think the money will come from for all the pay rises? Are you personally willing to pay more tax?
We all saw during the pandemic it is the poorly paid essential workers that kept the country going and they totally deserve more money than the claps they got. However will YOU be prepared to contribute to the pot ?

If not where do you think the govn will find more money from?

The government seem to be able to find the money when they need to. Giving MPs pay rises doesn't seem to be an issue. Does it need to be a race to the bottom? Should everyone accept their lot and metaphorically doff their caps?

SparklyLeprechaun · 16/12/2022 11:19

Stompythedinosaur · 16/12/2022 07:58

MP pay has increased 28% since 2010.

So? My pay has almost trebled since 2010. Being an MP is not exactly a job with significant career progression opportunities. They are paid a fair wage, as it should be.

Havanananana · 16/12/2022 11:20

The OP's post is based on the fallacy that funding to pay more to nurses (and to the public sector in general) only comes from Income Tax - i.e. if the nurses get more pay, someone else has to pay more income tax.

This is not strictly true on several counts.

There are numerous other sources of taxation revenue such as Customs duties, alcohol duty, VAT, Corporation Tax, Capital Gains Tax etc.

The government decides how the tax revenue collected is then spent. It could be spent for example on defence, education, policing, infrastructure, local services and healthcare and social care. The proportions are decided by the government - and the government of the last 12 years has decided that other things take priority over healthcare and social care. Not only is nurses' pay falling behind, but insufficient is being spent on hospital facilities and buildings, on modern medical equipment and on administration systems.

The UK is actually a low-tax country when compared with many other developed countries. Income Tax rates are comparatively low, as are Corporation Tax rates and Capital Gains Tax. This stems from the core Conservative beliefs that low taxation is a benefit in itself and that public services should be left to the Free Market. The result is clear for all to see - too few doctors and nurses, poor facilities and outdated equipment, 10% of the population on waiting lists etc.; a situation that simply would not be tolerated in any other developed country except the USA.

Notonthestairs · 16/12/2022 11:21

Individual choosing to top up Government funds won't change the Conservatives ideological choice to run down public services. It is a choice. They can find money for vanity projects - revamping trade planes, yachts, festivals of Brexit etc.

The taxpayer is paying for the agency workers. The tax payer is paying for storage of useless PPE.

Mismanagement of the NHS comes down to failures in Government. Ditto failures in workforce planning & social care.

MarshaBradyo · 16/12/2022 11:23

poetryandwine · 16/12/2022 11:12

@Dotjones and @MarshaBradyo you are criticising those of us not voluntarily paying more taxes. But as many of us have indicated, as much as we are willing to do that, we are furious at the wasteful, unethical and incompetent spending of successive Tory governments which easily could fund adequate salaries and benefits for the public sector. We have listed these above.

Voluntary payments cannot be ring fenced. As long as the government refuses to raise salaries to a proper level they are likely to fund more waste, incompetence and unethical spending

Up to you of course, although Labour may be in soon and it doesn’t look like they’re going for income tax rises so then maybe.

Another shift could be those wanting to pay higher tax being drawn to Scotland and vice versa. Not everyone can move obvs but just in general if higher taxation is a draw.

poetryandwine · 16/12/2022 11:33

Believe me, @MarshaBradyo we are considering Scotland because of its social values although certain practicalities make that difficult.

helford · 16/12/2022 11:50

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been pointed out, but those of you willing to pay more tax to support nurses and other workers are already free to contribute more to the government's bank balance. All you need to do is send a payment to HMRC and they will happily receive your contribution
I wonder how many of those who say they're happy to pay more tax are actually doing so?

TBH these sorts of comments are akin to "If you don't like Brexit, fuck off" or "Move to Scotland if you like higher taxes"

Taxation and funding of public services isn't some sort of lottery, where people have a whip round to fund a scanner, maybe we could fund a new type 45 frigate by voluntary contributions? no, thought not.

Healthcare needs allocation of funds based on predicted tax take and long term planning both on staffing levels and demand.

None of that can be done based on voluntary contributions or charity

Its not rocket science but time and time again we get idiotic suggestions from the 'right of the argument, no thought, which is why we are in this mess, either that or these people want to go back to pre NHS.

Taxation in UK is actually lower than most EU countries, who seem to do better both economically & on public services, health education and rail in particular.

vera99 · 16/12/2022 11:52

The arguments the government don't want you to have - don't believe the crap they spout in the Daily Mail and the like the people who keep this country going are the working class time to find our voice and optimism and support each other. A new world is possible and it's not communism but common sense.

MarshaBradyo · 16/12/2022 11:54

poetryandwine · 16/12/2022 11:33

Believe me, @MarshaBradyo we are considering Scotland because of its social values although certain practicalities make that difficult.

I don’t blame people if they’d like to go - in either direction. Some will prefer England’s version of tax etc

Although given learnings from Brexit and SNP referendum better to go before if it happens.. I know you can’t atm but just generally

Havanananana · 16/12/2022 11:59

Nobody on this thread has pointed out that people are already "paying" more than just tax as a result of the poor state of the health service. For example:

The loss of income caused by needing to take occasional days off work - either for one's own health condition or that of relatives, children, neighbours etc. - is also a form of "payment."

For some people, the almost total loss of income - i.e. they have had to give up work or reduce their hours while waiting for their condition to be treated, or while caring for someone else who is waiting;

The costs involved (time, petrol, parking, lost earnings etc.) in travelling to a hospital 30-40 miles away for an appointment because the local hospital doesn't have that specialisation or doesn't have a certain item of equipment;

The emotional cost of being unable to see a GP, of waiting months to see a Consultant and even longer to actually be treated and not knowing with certainty when the situation might improve (while the health condition continues to deteriorate). The emotional cost of having long-awaited surgery cancelled at the last minute. The emotional cost of the loss of independence - of being reliant on others for transport, shopping, social interaction, or for essentials such as hygiene, food and getting around the house.

None of these ever enter the government's calculations - they only count the direct costs to the Treasury and ignore the losses or costs to the individual. Which is a false way of calculating, because if a person can no longer work they become a "cost" to the Treasury (in the form of benefits payments and support etc.) and an additional "cost" in the form of lost income tax revenue, and lost VAT and other revenues as the individual earns and spends less.

BirmaBrite · 16/12/2022 12:20

I think its worthwhile to remember that the majority of social care is now privatised, be that domicillary or residential and nursing. It would be interesting to see if a saving has actually been made by doing this ? I suspect not. We just aren't very good at privatisation in this country, well not for the benefit of the consumer anyway !