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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What will happen if nurses and other professions don't get their pay rise?

161 replies

malificent7 · 15/12/2022 14:21

The country has come to enough of a standstill as it is. I fully support them btw....do they keep striking?

OP posts:
wonderstuff · 15/12/2022 19:19

I think they won’t get the pay rise and things will get worse, but at some point we’ll get a change in government and things will start getting better. There have been commentators saying the cumulative effect of the strikes could bring down the government. Collectively we need to start protesting I think, the healthcare system is hanging by a thread, education is struggling, social care isn’t sufficient, early years settings are struggling to stay afloat, the railways need investment, housing seems to have become a luxury. We’re a rich economy but somehow there’s less and less for ordinary people.

Daisy03 · 15/12/2022 19:26

@Workinghardeveryday I'm assuming you're a Tory bot.
If not, how do you think the union could afford to pay strikers salary? There are hardship funds but very hard to access as everyone can claim they need help.
It's a hard decision to strike as you lose your salary, particularly in current times, but it's the choice people are making to fight for their rights.

MrsCarson · 15/12/2022 19:47

I think if they don't get a decent deal, it will force a lot of nurses to look seriously at either retiring, or moving abroad or moving to private. Things they may have considered but have been putting off thinking, maybe one day. But that day will come for many.

willstarttomorrow · 15/12/2022 19:56

The real issue is that we have a Conservative government that control most of the press and have very successfully spread the narrative that public sector workers are all well off, have an amazing pension and are just greedy. I work in the public sector in a statutory service which does not really exists in the private sector (although the use of agency workers and private placements for looked after children is privatisation through the back door. A residential placement for a hard to place looked after child will usually cost around £8000 a week and that money is not going to the poorly paid, unqualified residential staff). My council has had cuts made EVERY YEAR which equate to multiple, tens of millions. We are all doing more for less, and in real terms have had an over 20% pay cut over the last decade. The current cost of living crisis, and before that covid, has just pushed people too far. There has been years of under investment and reserves and good will has been completely eroded.

No one wants to strike. Striking workers do not get paid and if you do not have a high earning partner, family support or savings, you are really taking a hit. Unions are vilified- however workers not part of a union have benefited from union actions over the years. If/when public sector pay is readjusted to where it should be, this will likely have an impact on the wider workforce. The same with working conditions. It amazes me when people tell us how lucky we are yet no one is racing to fill any of the many vacant posts that exist. You do not need to retrain (at your own expense) as a nurse, allied health professional, teacher or social worker. There remains a huge variety of jobs available. Amazingly, we cannot retain highly skilled admin staff on £16, 000 PA. The same in regards to solicitors, estates workers, accountants etc. It is quite likely if you want to be on the public sector payroll, there is a position available.

It depresses me that everything is always a race to the bottom. If as skilled, highly trained professionals (who tend to be paid a lot less- this is the deal for pensions etc) we express anger at our working conditions and pay depressingly people just jump in telling us how much worse it could be. We should shut up and be grateful to have a job. I have not nursed for nearly 20 years and have worked in child protection after retraining since then. I bloody love my job but the current working conditions are unbearable. Social workers (particularly those in their first 5 years) are just leaving g with nothing to go to.

If you are academically able to retrain (on no pay) and have the necessary disposition and resilience to work in the roles such as nursing, social work, the police etc- there is nothing stopping you. If you believe we have it easy and are just guaranteed pay if we turn up, take numerous paid sick days, will get a huge pension and clock off at 5 (no overtime- time of in lieu- currently have 214 hours to take back) then come and join us.

If not then please stop to think about how important our role is within a functioning society and luckily there are lots of people for whom it is something they love and (working conditions and pay allowing) will continue to want to do. These are not 'vocations' - just some us find this is our skill set and a job we love. Everyone contribites to our society in various ways. I have had police officers say they could not do my job but no way could I do theirs. The same with many private sector jobs, I would be shite at marketing, finance, or anything financial for example, my job is not more important. We just cannot continue to be penalised because of the anti- public service rhetoric. The money is there, we have seen it directed towards very wealthy Tory cronies- particularly during the pandemic.

Schlaar · 15/12/2022 20:00

Nothing will happen if they don’t get their pay rise. They’re trained in that profession, they aren’t trained for anything else so will find it difficult to get a similar level job elsewhere. And they aren’t going to leave nursing for a lower paid unskilled position. So they’ll just have to put up and shut up. The same as the teachers who have gone on strike numerous times because of workload and conditions - nothing gets done and they’re trapped in their jobs because they’re not qualified for anything else.

LexMitior · 15/12/2022 20:04

Schlaar, they will leave and work on contract. You can charge the public purse three to four times the rate and leave!

That's across the public sector now. The time is now to take your skills and contract.

LexMitior · 15/12/2022 20:07

I mean it's ridiculous because it's more expensive, you have less responsibility and you are literally paid more to care less, but that is what is coming.

Schlaar · 15/12/2022 20:08

LexMitior · 15/12/2022 20:04

Schlaar, they will leave and work on contract. You can charge the public purse three to four times the rate and leave!

That's across the public sector now. The time is now to take your skills and contract.

Contracting isn’t better. In fact colleges and universities are purposely getting rid of permanent teachers and replacing them with contracted teachers, as a money saving exercise because it means they’re no longer liable for sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay, pensions and all other employment benefits. The agency takes half of your salary so you don’t earn any more money either. So that’s the situation nurses will end up in too if they try to switch to working on contract!

LexMitior · 15/12/2022 20:09

But they are earning far more now on agency rates. It's the future

LexMitior · 15/12/2022 20:10

Me too, btw! Former public sector, now charging the taxpayer triple the rate.

Mydogatemypurse · 15/12/2022 20:16

Workinghardeveryday · 15/12/2022 14:51

a colleague’s sister works for Royal Mail, she gets £80 a day from the union when she is on strike!!!!

I dont think they do. My neighbour certainly doesnt who is currently a striking postie.

ThisIsDemocracyManifest · 15/12/2022 20:19

@willstarttomorrow 👏👏👏👏👏👏

willstarttomorrow · 15/12/2022 20:36

Schlaar- Nursing has been at degree level for a long time now. There are several transferable skills. When I trained as a nurse back in the 1990s- someone went straight into a management role in a sector totally unrelated to nursing because it was a well regarded degree course with a management module. Back then it was crap but it seems like utopia now. Anyone walking into many jobs having had to manage 30 + critically ill people, multitask, deal with crisis constantly, whilst dealing with constant abuse for 12 hours + from the public and be professionally accountable probably have something to offer. That is without the many agency positions, working for drugs companies, research posts etc.... I am not a nurse now because it was not my thing. I continue to recognise and respect what they do. Working I child protection I would really like to 'big up' the health visitors I work with. They get a really bad reputation but in my deprived area in a big city they are absolutely amazing and a huge part in supporting very vulnerable families. They too are completely understaffed and probably focus more on vulnerable families- hence why most people think they have no service.

whatkatydid2013 · 15/12/2022 20:37

Florenz · 15/12/2022 16:17

Yes but they receive more public money (from taxes) than they pay in taxes. So in reality they don't pay tax. It's like giving someone £10 and taking £2 of it back. In reality you just gave them £8. They didn't give you anything.

I don't disagree that nurses deserve a payrise but 19% is too much. Private sector workers have suffered a great deal in recent years what with COVID etc and it's time we were thought about a bit more instead of being taken for granted/used as cash cows.

I’m sorry but this is just wrong. Private sector workers as a group have had year on year pay increases higher than the public sector for the past 10 years plus. Private sector workers also benefited widely from the massive expense of running schemes to furlough people over covid. In that same period nurses, transport staff and postmen were all key workers who went out and worked with increased risk of exposure to a virus we had minimal treatments for and got a nice round of applause. Now they would actually like to have some money to survive the cost of living crisis. We managed to find it to keep private businesses afloat and pay people in the private sector to stay at home and do whatever they wanted so pretty confident we can now all suck up paying a bit more to retain our key workers.
Oh and for what it’s worth I’m a private sector accountant who had a below inflation payrise this year and who worked through all the lockdowns while trying to get through all the homework bits for two young kids. Inspite of that I’m not so massively self absorbed that I can’t see public sector workers have been totally shafted for years and I can recognise that it’s bad for absolutely everyone if we can’t retain nurses.

Hoowhoowho · 15/12/2022 20:39

we’re increasingly being seen as a source country for nurses and midwives. Good quality training, poor pay and conditions. More and more, other countries with better pay and conditions are seeing their chance. Especially English speaking nations. So more younger nurses will go abroad usually permanently.

A tiny proportion of newly qualified nurses and midwives actually practice long term. For midwives the figure is 5% working in the NHS 5 years post qualification. Newly qualified nurses are not stuck. Not yet dependent on the money they easily move to alternative roles.

Retirement beckons for many. Nursing and midwifery are increasingly older professions. The NHS depends on many of those retirees coming back a day or two a week. More and more they aren’t. It’s a lost resource.

Bank and agency beckon for others. Flexibility, higher pay and lower stress. What’s not to like? Occasional stupid pay. A school can decide to join up classes, utilise the TA etc to avoid supply but when A and E has only one nurse then a hospital has to pay agency and in the end pay as much as they have to. I’ve seen rates of £50+ an hour on occasion.

As predominantly female professions, for many nurses and midwives, their wage isn’t the family wage. Nursing and midwifery with their long, anti social hours aren’t exactly family friendly professions. Many dramatically reduce or
leave their work post children. A surprising number can afford a pay cut to do so.

Others stay in the profession but move to less expensive areas. Prestigious hospitals in places like London are finding themselves unable to attract staff and running rolling adverts. The reality is, your average nurse isn’t living in London.

DdraigGoch · 15/12/2022 20:43

Florenz · 15/12/2022 16:03

Where does the money for all these rises come from? It's private sector workers that have to pay for it all and most of us will not see anything like a 19% raise this year.

If you want to get "no medical treatment" tattooed somewhere prominent on your body, then that's up to you. The rest of us would prefer to be treated by motivated staff working to safe ratios. If that means higher taxes, so be it.

napody · 15/12/2022 20:46

AelinAshriver · 15/12/2022 16:50

Where does the money come from?

Well

We had the 11 billion that Rishi cost us when he forgot to insure the national debt.

And we had the 37 billion for the failed Test and Trace that never really cut infection.

And we had the 9 billion for the defective PPE.

And we had the 30 billion that Liz Truss cost us in her Mini Budget.

And of course we've had the 31 billion that Brexit has cost us so far. Which adds us to 118 billion.

So there's no magic money tree and we simply don't have the money for these pay rises for the public sector. It's just maths.

Or is it a corrupted Tory Government?

A million times this, for the tories at the back.

napody · 15/12/2022 20:50

Hoowhoowho · 15/12/2022 20:39

we’re increasingly being seen as a source country for nurses and midwives. Good quality training, poor pay and conditions. More and more, other countries with better pay and conditions are seeing their chance. Especially English speaking nations. So more younger nurses will go abroad usually permanently.

A tiny proportion of newly qualified nurses and midwives actually practice long term. For midwives the figure is 5% working in the NHS 5 years post qualification. Newly qualified nurses are not stuck. Not yet dependent on the money they easily move to alternative roles.

Retirement beckons for many. Nursing and midwifery are increasingly older professions. The NHS depends on many of those retirees coming back a day or two a week. More and more they aren’t. It’s a lost resource.

Bank and agency beckon for others. Flexibility, higher pay and lower stress. What’s not to like? Occasional stupid pay. A school can decide to join up classes, utilise the TA etc to avoid supply but when A and E has only one nurse then a hospital has to pay agency and in the end pay as much as they have to. I’ve seen rates of £50+ an hour on occasion.

As predominantly female professions, for many nurses and midwives, their wage isn’t the family wage. Nursing and midwifery with their long, anti social hours aren’t exactly family friendly professions. Many dramatically reduce or
leave their work post children. A surprising number can afford a pay cut to do so.

Others stay in the profession but move to less expensive areas. Prestigious hospitals in places like London are finding themselves unable to attract staff and running rolling adverts. The reality is, your average nurse isn’t living in London.

Agree with all of this except that it's 'easier' to manage when teachers strike. Most classes are full, many TAs have left and not even replaced due to budgets, and there are massive difficulties filling the posts that are advertised. Teachers hold a lot of cards and because of this it's important that they strike, for their own conditions (and for the government to actually fund their pay rise instead of schools having to take it from the pupils!) but also in solidarity for nurses and other striking workers.

DonnaBanana · 15/12/2022 21:00

The damage has already been done. What sadistic parents are encouraging their children to become doctors or nurses these days? There will be a shortage in the pipeline for decades because of how people perceive the job now.

hellesbells · 15/12/2022 21:04

AelinAshriver · 15/12/2022 16:50

Where does the money come from?

Well

We had the 11 billion that Rishi cost us when he forgot to insure the national debt.

And we had the 37 billion for the failed Test and Trace that never really cut infection.

And we had the 9 billion for the defective PPE.

And we had the 30 billion that Liz Truss cost us in her Mini Budget.

And of course we've had the 31 billion that Brexit has cost us so far. Which adds us to 118 billion.

So there's no magic money tree and we simply don't have the money for these pay rises for the public sector. It's just maths.

Or is it a corrupted Tory Government?

Let's not forget Michelle Mone who scammed 29 million out of the taxpayer, small fry compared to the above but hey every penny counts

IneedanewTV · 15/12/2022 21:19

willstarttomorrow · 15/12/2022 19:56

The real issue is that we have a Conservative government that control most of the press and have very successfully spread the narrative that public sector workers are all well off, have an amazing pension and are just greedy. I work in the public sector in a statutory service which does not really exists in the private sector (although the use of agency workers and private placements for looked after children is privatisation through the back door. A residential placement for a hard to place looked after child will usually cost around £8000 a week and that money is not going to the poorly paid, unqualified residential staff). My council has had cuts made EVERY YEAR which equate to multiple, tens of millions. We are all doing more for less, and in real terms have had an over 20% pay cut over the last decade. The current cost of living crisis, and before that covid, has just pushed people too far. There has been years of under investment and reserves and good will has been completely eroded.

No one wants to strike. Striking workers do not get paid and if you do not have a high earning partner, family support or savings, you are really taking a hit. Unions are vilified- however workers not part of a union have benefited from union actions over the years. If/when public sector pay is readjusted to where it should be, this will likely have an impact on the wider workforce. The same with working conditions. It amazes me when people tell us how lucky we are yet no one is racing to fill any of the many vacant posts that exist. You do not need to retrain (at your own expense) as a nurse, allied health professional, teacher or social worker. There remains a huge variety of jobs available. Amazingly, we cannot retain highly skilled admin staff on £16, 000 PA. The same in regards to solicitors, estates workers, accountants etc. It is quite likely if you want to be on the public sector payroll, there is a position available.

It depresses me that everything is always a race to the bottom. If as skilled, highly trained professionals (who tend to be paid a lot less- this is the deal for pensions etc) we express anger at our working conditions and pay depressingly people just jump in telling us how much worse it could be. We should shut up and be grateful to have a job. I have not nursed for nearly 20 years and have worked in child protection after retraining since then. I bloody love my job but the current working conditions are unbearable. Social workers (particularly those in their first 5 years) are just leaving g with nothing to go to.

If you are academically able to retrain (on no pay) and have the necessary disposition and resilience to work in the roles such as nursing, social work, the police etc- there is nothing stopping you. If you believe we have it easy and are just guaranteed pay if we turn up, take numerous paid sick days, will get a huge pension and clock off at 5 (no overtime- time of in lieu- currently have 214 hours to take back) then come and join us.

If not then please stop to think about how important our role is within a functioning society and luckily there are lots of people for whom it is something they love and (working conditions and pay allowing) will continue to want to do. These are not 'vocations' - just some us find this is our skill set and a job we love. Everyone contribites to our society in various ways. I have had police officers say they could not do my job but no way could I do theirs. The same with many private sector jobs, I would be shite at marketing, finance, or anything financial for example, my job is not more important. We just cannot continue to be penalised because of the anti- public service rhetoric. The money is there, we have seen it directed towards very wealthy Tory cronies- particularly during the pandemic.

Great post

MarshaBradyo · 15/12/2022 21:22

Schlaar · 15/12/2022 20:08

Contracting isn’t better. In fact colleges and universities are purposely getting rid of permanent teachers and replacing them with contracted teachers, as a money saving exercise because it means they’re no longer liable for sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay, pensions and all other employment benefits. The agency takes half of your salary so you don’t earn any more money either. So that’s the situation nurses will end up in too if they try to switch to working on contract!

You do lose all those things, plus it’s easier to contract in size if staff are not needed.

butterfly990 · 15/12/2022 21:36

It's not just nurses in the NHS.

Starting salary band 2 for a HCA is now minimum wage.

willstarttomorrow · 15/12/2022 22:58

@AelinAshriver exactly. But the narrative is Labour cannot be trusted with the economy- This government found the magic money tree but the money went to multimillionaire cronies- and then they crashed the economy. I was working in child protection under the last Labour and they did a huge amount to address inequality for young children and families- although not remembered due to Tony Blairs Iraq legacy. I remember the banner on 'Every child matters' website when the Conservatives came into power. It actually said ' This is not a policy of this Government'. I was listening to Breakfast on 5 live yesterday, as I often do. There was a school in the city next to mine who have had £50 000 in donations after a BBC broadcast talking to the head explained many children were not eligible for free school meals but their working parents could not afford to pay for a hot school meal. We are one of the richest nations in the world but our children are getting international donations to get a school lunch.

Lancrelady80 · 15/12/2022 23:42

Yes but they receive more public money (from taxes) than they pay in taxes. So in reality they don't pay tax. It's like giving someone £10 and taking £2 of it back. In reality you just gave them £8. They didn't give you anything.

Umm...no. It's like paying public sector workers their wages and then taxing them on it.

Or would you prefer we work for free?

Unless of course you are referring to the number of public sector workers that don't earn enough from their wages and so have to claim tax credits, Universal Credit etc?