It can't all be because he's neurodiverse?

[freespirit333]

Strongly suspect DS age 7 is neurodiverse, he's on the waiting list to be assessed.

He's a lovely child, not prone to meltdowns as such, but plenty of rudeness, back chat, not listening, overreacting rudely/horribly (such as getting angry if I accidentally step on his toe).

Normally on school mornings he has to get dressed upstairs first thing before going downstairs for breakfast. He shares a room with his sibling who's been sleeping in lately, so this morning I brought his clothes downstairs, made him breakfast, asked him to eat breakfast and get dressed.

He didn't. Ate a bit of breakfast and messed around. I refuse to ask over and over again as I think it's pointless, he knows what he's meant to be doing and asking several times just makes me angry. He starts being mean to his younger sibling while still only half dressed, I told him off and he is sometimes (often) so sensitive to being told off (which I know is part of being ND - full disclosure his dad is textbook inattentive ADHD and also prickles if he feels he's being criticised, so I'm well-versed on rejection sensitive dysphoria/emotional regulation etc) - I get told I'm being so mean to him etc. I tend to ignore this but eventually I do end up telling him off more. He just kept answering back, I threaten a consequence so he gets upset and says sorry, so I give him one chance to finish getting ready - teeth, shoes, coat - and I won't see the consequence through - but he still doesn't. Still carries on answering back or being mean to sibling.

Is this "normal" for his age? He's not like it every day but we are definitely in over-excitement for Christmas/tired end of term/it's freezing so getting up and dressed to school is not pleasant mode. I feel even though he is most likely certainly ND, he can't get away with answering back like that.

There will definitely be a consequence later. He was 10 minutes late to school purely of his own doing (unreasonable 3 year old sibling was still up/dressed/breakfasted and ready in time!), I hope he got told off but I don't suppose he did!

Quite normal and also normal for neuro atypical. Mine's 7 has ASC and can react violently to demands. I tend to dress them if there's a rush. I get backlash because, "You never let me dress myself or brush my own teeth" or if I leave to get dressed, "No. I'm not doing it." Can't win either way.
Tends to be worse coming up end of term/beginning of holidays and again start of term.

I tend to grey rock in the morning. Ignore the bad. Praise the good.

Also to add. The change in routine might have upset him.

Thank you @HypaHypa. DS doesn't care one jot about changes in routine, I would be more understanding if he did. He cares about his own enjoyment and fun, and also most likely has slow processing speed, slow everything speed!

Please send me your grey rock vibes, I need it this week! It was the unreasonable 3 year old yesterday, DS puts on a halo when his sibling is being difficult, thankfully. But then it almost seems as if he gets naughtier if his sibling is being "good"!

Yes it can.

You also need to follow through with consequences otherwise he will continue to push.

You threw his routine out the window. That's huge for some autistic children. I'm in my 40s and still have days where if things go off plan I end up so distressed I cannot talk. Please don't punish your child for behaving this way. He need support when things go wrong, not punishment

Sorry you said he doesn't car about changing routines but he cares about his own enjoyment and fun. It's the same thing. I would place money on this being because he had to alter his morning

It wasn't your finest parenting hour but hey ho we all have bad days. Your DS needs routine like a fish needs water.

Are you sure he isn’t just naughty/badly behaved (at the moment anyway)? Or does he have other symptoms?

There are ways of managing this behaviour in neurodivergent (note: neurodivergent, not neurodiverse) but you need to understand the reasons behind his behaviour before you can do that effectively. Start learning as much as you can about autism and ADHD. In the meantime, more patience where possible and grey rock vibes where not. Reduce demands. Help him more. Christmas is hell in this house and over the years I've learned what works with my children at this time of year and it all boils down to making life as easy as possible for them in December and while they recover in early Jan.

You completely changed his normal morning routine, even if you think he doesn’t bother with routines he is in the routine of doing things in a certain way so having that changed will impact his day.

I refuse to ask over and over again as I think it's pointless, he knows what he's meant to be doing and asking several times just makes me angry.

this bit of your post stood out to me. With some ND children, you have to have a rigid routine and remind, remind, remind until they get into the groove and do it automatically (which can take months to get to). Im afraid you are likely to have to hold your temper and do the reminding until he gets there himself. He isnt necessarily trying to be naughty, he just cant stay on track himself yet.

My ds2 (asd) uses routine to help him compensate for things like slow processing speed/getting distracted. So it's not that changes upset him as such, more that they totally throw him off stride. So it could be that the changes you made didn't help however he is also 7 which was, as I recall, prime faffing age for both of mine nd and nt alike.

I agree with PP, you did change his routine and that probably matters.
Also, you say:
'I refuse to ask over and over again as I think it's pointless, he knows what he's meant to be doing and asking several times just makes me angry.'
I totally get that it is infuriating and your DS should know what he's doing, but you need to get over this, get super-patient and just repeat the instructions. In fact, go for one item of clothing at a time, if necessary, or dress him yourself. I can't tell you whether his behaviour is age-appropriate, but it is perfectly normal for kids with ADHD or ASD.

The routine thing, seriously, it's not the issue. I know DS very well, and I know a lot about autism and ADHD (I have many, many traits of ADHD and it's been a source of hyperfocus for me since he was born). I actually don't think he is autistic and that he has ADHD as those are all of his signs. But I'm also not an expert in the DSM-5 and when he is assessed, I want it to be thoroughly, so I have asked for him to be assessed for both.

@Untitledsquatboulder that is a good point though, it may well have thrown him off his stride. It doesn't upset him. Although he gets dressed so slowly these days anyway, I am sympathetic to the fact it's bloody cold and involves more layers - in the summer he used to just appear fully dressed in his school shorts and polo top first thing!

So yes @Cuppasoupmonster I have been wondering if this morning he was just being naughty and bloody minded!

@Chaotica I haven't had to dress him since he was about 3. He is very good at self care and in fact it's one of his strengths (poor thing has had a lot of constipation issues over the years - very common in ND children I know - and he always sorts himself out graciously and without fuss, in a much more mature way than your average 7 year old!).

My DH is just like this. But equally he gets very frustrated with DS. So tricky to manage!

I definitely need to try and be more patient! I think because often he does just get himself sorted with no issues, I then find it frustrating when he can't. I absolutely hate getting dressed after swimming - it's a sensory nightmare for me - but yet DS dries himself and gets dressed so quickly afterwards, he puts me to shame.

Tbh I don't really see anything that screams autism. Just a bit of bad behaviour, an unorganised morning and a kinda stubborn mum (in the nicest possible way, we've all been there.)

If you do think he's autistic then yes, he absolutely needs reminding a tonne. I'm an adult, I'm very good at managing my autism, I still need reminding, either by myself, alarms or when someone says "did you get that thing asked for". You need to remind him.

Also, if he's autistic, whether you see the signs or not, having a set routine will really help get everything done quicker. Because you start to do stuff on autopilot and get distracted less easily the more you do the same routine over and over.

But this stuck out "there will be consequences later" does that mean after school when this is all forgotten about you're going to say "no you can't play your game/have a treat Because this morning you wouldn't get ready"? Because I'm not sure if that will work well for a neurotypical child, but it definitely won't work for a an autistic child. It will just be a totally unrewarded struggle for you.

Good luck with the assessment. Whether he is diagnosed or not they'll have some good advice for how to tackle certain behaviours easier so make sure you go in with a list of the things you most need help tackling.

The routine thing, seriously, it's not the issue. I know DS very well, and I know a lot about autism and ADHD (I have many, many traits of ADHD and it's been a source of hyperfocus for me since he was born). I actually don't think he is autistic and that he has ADHD as those are all of his signs. But I'm also not an expert in the DSM-5 and when he is assessed, I want it to be thoroughly, so I have asked for him to be assessed for both.

You are very fortunate that anyone is agreeing to assess your child for autism without there being any reason to. People are struggling to get children referred who have so many obvious indicators.

I'm going to leave this now because I suspect you just want people who will agree that you should be punishing your child because he should control his behaviour.

My 11yo has Autism. I would say although her executive function is quite good it is definitely affected by being stressed, being fixated on something, being ill or tired. I'm actually packing her school bag every day at the moment because she's finding school hard, even though she has had the skills to do it herself from about 7 or 8. So I wonder if even though your DS is normally competent at dressing whether he's struggling today because of everything else going on.

@coldec a lot of the symptoms/traits of ADHD and autism overlap. The assessment is done for both where I live as part of the pathway. He was actually already seen and discharged at first appointment two years ago; because we'd had lock down, and then his reception teacher didn't raise anything to us until right at the end of the summer term. So I have been through this before, he was originally referred in 2019 because he had issues at his preschool. I thought he was autistic then, but I didn't know very much about ADHD. Since then I have learned a lot and it's come to light that DH probably has it (we didn't know back then). He might well be autistic. It's not my strong instinct, but I could be wrong, I am not the expert. I know all too well that plenty of children with autism cope very well through primary before it all falls apart in high school. DS does have issues in primary, already. The main reason I don't think he is autistic is because he doesn't seem to mask, and the signs from when he was younger (according to the questionnaire) don't suggest it, in that he pointed at the right age, played peekaboo etc, and he doesn't have meltdowns, and has never had strong interests. He certainly stims though, finds emotional regulation difficult often, has poor executive function. There's so much overlap.

Surely ND children still need consequences for their behaviour?

Thanks @UnbeatenMum , this thread has definitely made me think outside of what happened this morning. It's just such a minefield isn't it. Today is a "normal" school morning so I hadn't expected problems. Whereas when we have "special" things on (school shows, meals out, family gatherings, parties) I make sure to go through everything with him (he is majorly prone to getting overexcited rather than melting down) beforehand.

I don’t tolerate my autistic child being nasty to his sibling, autism or not. That’s never acceptable and he knows he’ll be asked to leave the room until he’s calm and ready to be civil.

But I do also consider the reason why, because usually when he’s picking on sibling it’s because he’s upset or unhappy but either can’t tell me why or doesn’t know himself, just know he feels “wrong”. Mine accepts changes to routine fairly well, to a point. But at this time of year, with all the changes in school stuff because of Christmas, the cold weather, viruses everywhere…. Honestly I bend over backwards to keep his home life as boring and repetitive and the same as possible- however inconvenient for me. Even if he really had to get dressed downstairs I’d have made him get dressed then have breakfast if that’s what he’s used to. And to be honest I probably wouldn’t have changed it at all, sibling would just be woken at normal time. But if I did change it I’d expect to then have to keep him on track, and yes, not get angry myself. He’s a child, with poor executive function, at this point in the term, and Mum just threw his morning order of things out the window at the last minute, of course he struggled a bit- you say he overreacts to minor things but honestly it sounds like you do too. It’s really not worth imposing consequences hours later for.

Mornings in our house veer between a French farce and the Battle of the Somme. He just sounds bog standard naughty. Routines and consequences, but focus as much as possible on the positive.

@Carolthereindeer I do overreact to things, yes. Everyone in my house does, it's really tricky.

Consequences that don't happen in the immediate range of the problem behaviour will create anxiety and probably not work. If he has ADHD he might experience alot of anxiety and mixed up thoughts as his brain tries to process it, which can seem like slow processing. He may have executive functioning disorders too.

What can you remove from the school organisation routine to simplify it. Can you make the wall he sleeps closest too calm, with few things on it, cut out as much 'info' for him to process. Draw a 3 step visual strip to prompt him and give him clues around remembering what he needs to do, in what order.

Alot of his behaviour could be stress but alot could be being 7.