It can't all be because he's neurodiverse?

[freespirit333]

Strongly suspect DS age 7 is neurodiverse, he's on the waiting list to be assessed.

He's a lovely child, not prone to meltdowns as such, but plenty of rudeness, back chat, not listening, overreacting rudely/horribly (such as getting angry if I accidentally step on his toe).

Normally on school mornings he has to get dressed upstairs first thing before going downstairs for breakfast. He shares a room with his sibling who's been sleeping in lately, so this morning I brought his clothes downstairs, made him breakfast, asked him to eat breakfast and get dressed.

He didn't. Ate a bit of breakfast and messed around. I refuse to ask over and over again as I think it's pointless, he knows what he's meant to be doing and asking several times just makes me angry. He starts being mean to his younger sibling while still only half dressed, I told him off and he is sometimes (often) so sensitive to being told off (which I know is part of being ND - full disclosure his dad is textbook inattentive ADHD and also prickles if he feels he's being criticised, so I'm well-versed on rejection sensitive dysphoria/emotional regulation etc) - I get told I'm being so mean to him etc. I tend to ignore this but eventually I do end up telling him off more. He just kept answering back, I threaten a consequence so he gets upset and says sorry, so I give him one chance to finish getting ready - teeth, shoes, coat - and I won't see the consequence through - but he still doesn't. Still carries on answering back or being mean to sibling.

Is this "normal" for his age? He's not like it every day but we are definitely in over-excitement for Christmas/tired end of term/it's freezing so getting up and dressed to school is not pleasant mode. I feel even though he is most likely certainly ND, he can't get away with answering back like that.

There will definitely be a consequence later. He was 10 minutes late to school purely of his own doing (unreasonable 3 year old sibling was still up/dressed/breakfasted and ready in time!), I hope he got told off but I don't suppose he did!

There's not a lot in there that feels overly ND-esque to me, looks like perfectly normal young-lad behaviour - pushing boundaries to see what gives.

As I often tell my wife...being ND and being a bit of a dickhead aren't mutually-exclusive. The good news is that, at 7yrs old, one of those can be corrected :)

@xyhere My ND friends are the least dickheadish of all my friends!

Oh, I don't disagree that we're far superior and therefore it's much less likely that we're going to be dickheads, but it's still possible :D

You really do need to tell him one step at a time what to do or dress him as he is clearly not capable at the moment.

Yes, it's fucking annoying. Yes you get attitude. If you try to rush it you get a worse result...which we had a practical demonstration of this morning.

Point taken @BlackeyedSusan , I think because he is so capable most of the time, I had negated the fact that maybe currently he isn't. Poor thing basically liquid-shat his pants in school a few weeks ago because of some ongoing issues and the medication dosage he was on. He had spare pants in his bag and sorted himself out discreetly and maturely, no fuss. His teacher pulled me aside to say how impressed she'd been with his maturity and ability to deal with it himself. So when he's then messing around when it's time to get dressed, which he does fine most days, I do tend to think he's just being a pain!

So today was a new day…DS went down to see what the elf has done as he has every December morning, ran back up to tell me, noticed I had my phone so grabbed it and said he wanted to look at photos. I said no and took it back, so he called me a meanie, worst mummy, even said he hated me which is the first time he’s said that! All because of change in his routine? He hadn’t been asked to get dressed or anything at this point. I’m sorry but to me, that is just being a spoiled brat and needs telling off.

Tricky isn't it....Dc1 is ND and was terrible in the morning at primary....We had visual cues for the three things he had to do (breakfast, get dressed, clean teeth) and even then he managed to get distracted/ loose something/loose the plot. He's also lovely and could occasionally also be not so nice. Any personally aimed nasty words or anything physical got a consequence..... All the rest not so much (grumbling, stomping, leaping about...).

Really tricky @hettie ! I am actually much kinder and more patient with any sort of tantrum/meltdown, or tears, as to me that’s a loss of control over emotions, or genuine really upset. Whereas nasty words feel calculated, rude and disrespectful.

nd is not an excuse for rudeness but consequences have to be immediate for an ADHD wired brain, otherwise they are meaningless.

The main interventions for ADHD are medication and parenting so the research you've been doing will all help.

I think you're at risk of over-analysing exactly what he said and did when probably he was just trying anything to avoid or delay getting ready for school this morning. It's the end of a very long term, everyone's running on empty and even the easiest of kids will have end-of-term-itis, dregs of colds hanging about etc. You got him to school, chalk it up as a success, try to let go of the exact phrases he used. It wasn't actually a conversation about your parenting and how it makes him feel, it was him trying to needle you as a delaying tactic. I try and treat it "professionally" like teachers do and rise above it.

My autistic child would not have the "spoons" at this point in the term to react in such a socially sophisticated way. He would probably just not be able to string a sentence together and snarl at me. They are all different. Autistic children need boundaries too, you just draw them differently and the stress of the morning school run is a battle I wouldn't pick. At this point in the term I'd have been picking up a lot of cues from him, opening his curtains, making his breakfast, handing him things without speaking following his exact morning routine checklist and just being as low demand as possible to get him into school.

My six year old is NT and as defiant as they come. So certainly normal for him. I still have to help him get dressed or the morning turns to shit and he’s seven in three months.

Thank you @PingPongMerrilyWithPie . I've pointed out to my DH that he could well be struggling with the basics at the minute, for the various reasons many have said - tiredness, end of term, viruses, Christmas excitement/anxiety - so let's just treat him with a bit of TLC. It's so f*cking cold as well, as an adult I hate getting dressed!

It sounds like you do a lot of threatening the consequence but not actually imposing it, which is probably not very clear and consistent (ive had this problem myself).

Kids this age aren't immediately obedient unless they've learned via habits & consequences. Don't repeat instructions, but go over and stop him doing whatever else he's trying to do until what you've asked has been done. State a reasonable consequence, set a timer, if what you ask isn't done impose the consequence.

Not when it’s directly related to their disability and your refusal to assist and make allowances. Grow up.

Of course a child gets angry when you step on their toe, it hurts! You are totally devoid of empathy.

I think your morning struggles are familiar to many parents - with both neurodiverse and non neurodiverse kids. I don't think mine are neurodiverse but they still dawdle in the morning and need several reminders. For my son a carrot works better than a stick. If he is completely ready (dressed,teeth, breakfast, coat, shoes and bag ready) he can then sit on the stairs and use his tablet for a bit. He seems to be quicker with a little instant motivation (he couldn't care less about getting to school on time!). Appreciate that might not work for a child with adhd though.

Whereas nasty words feel calculated, rude and disrespectful.

He is only 7, ND and probably just lashing out. It hardly calculated, it's a loss of control because he is frustrated and out of sorts.

One of mine was a write off for most of December because of everything being 'different' - he never managed the last week of school before the holidays at all and for most of the month was completely on edge and like a ticking bomb.

I refuse to ask over and over again as I think it's pointless, he knows what he's meant to be doing and asking several times just makes me angry.

I would guess this would result in lateness with about 50% of 7 year olds, NT or ND.

I have one who is ND and one who is probably NT and I spend most of my life repeating what they’re meant to be doing. It makes me cross but it’s a normal part of parenting.

I think your expectations may be a bit high especially given it’s the end of term, he’s been ill, etc.

My eldest DS has sensitivity issues, we have no formal diagnosis for him however. We just thought he was very highly strung. It's just as his little brother has got bigger, we are noticing more and more the differences between them. My DS sounds very similar to yours. However, he is in year 3 now and I think it's quite a big step up from infants to juniors. There is more emphasis on peer pressure / bravado especially amongst the boys it seems. We have noticed huge changes in him since going into year 3. He never used to backchat, but he's doing it a lot now. Other parents have said their chicken are the same.

His school is very academic also and comparing it to my primary when I was a child, it really doesn't seem like a very enjoyable environment.

Sorry *chicken would be easier to raise or course!!

@bellamountain indeed chickens probably would be easier! My DS definitely gets a lot of the backchat from his friends, but also he isn't innocent himself. It's probably more the environment that encourages it rather than any child being a "bad influence", as you say peer pressure and bravado.

Thanks @minipie I'm the first to admit that my expectations of everyone are too high, it's a character flaw and only on reflection do I realise.

If you feel to punish your son for his behaviour then you do it there and then. A ND person doesn't deal well with delayed responses.

I got my son assessed purely to be able to prove a teacher wrong guess what he has aspergers. Everyone is telling you routine is key you're insisting it's not an issue your sons actions this morning say different. You came here asking for advice, I hope you'll take it. Every person neuro typical or diverse is different you need to educate more yourself on ASD it's why it's a spectrum everyone has different challenges

Making an assumption that he's autistic (which may or may not be the case), have you considered that there might be sensory issues at the root of his refusal to comply?

For example...I have major sensory issues when it comes to teeth. Even seeing somebody else brushing their teeth causes my brain to "pull away" (I can't think of any better way of explaining it), and brushing my own teeth produces a response that might be called "pain", although it's not physical, and I have to work really hard not to curl up in a ball every morning. Similarly, he might have issues with the texture of his clothes (very common).

While this might not be an issue every day, autism isn't the same every day either. Worse, a young child won't be self-aware enough to be able to identify what's different, much less communicate it.

The suggestion of giving instructions one at a time instead of compounding them all at once is also a good one. Even as an adult who's successfully masked from the world for decades, I still have trouble when given a rapid-fire list of things to do (much to my wife's eternal frustration).

Anyway, those are just some ideas - may or may not be useful.

I understand why you feel like that, but certainly for my autistic child it’s not always the case. Sure, like every other kid sometimes he’s rude or cheeky just because he can be and I correct him.

But sometimes him telling me he hates me, I’m a terrible person, he wishes he had a different Mummy, I’m mean etc etc is just as out of his control as floods of tears. Big feelings are very hard for him, he gets overwhelmed and he reacts in atypical ways (which given he’s autistic isn’t really surprising). Sometimes for him it comes out in being rude or appearing defiant. The nastiest he has ever been to me was when he was actually terrified about something and had no idea how to tell me or deal with his feelings about it so instead he repeatedly told me he wanted me to die or he wanted another Mummy or he’d pick fights with me about complete nonsense. Took hours of coaxing and just sitting quietly ready to listen to get to the bottom of that one! Sometimes for him being rude or nasty or seemingly deliberately trying to get told off is his way of communicating with me that he’s unhappy, disregulated, scared or just plain doesn’t feel right but he doesn’t have the words or emotional maturity to just say it - and he doesn’t necessarily realise that’s why he’s doing it either.

Im not saying there’s some big thing going on with your son, there’s probably not. It might well be just garden variety child rudeness. But having previously thought the way you do and in my son’s case been wrong I thought it worth sharing. Such a minefield!

Could it be that you're projecting your own difficulties onto him and that, actually, he's just being a tricky, very typical, 7 year old?

My neurotypical nephew is 9 and can test boundaries. He will just keep going until it ends in a big meltdown. Because he wants his own way and is stubborn. It's getting better as he ages, but I thought that was pretty normal to be honest. I may be completely wrong but don't most 7 year olds test boundaries still? And fight with siblings?

You said yourself, you threatened a consequence and he changed his tune and apologised. As soon as he realised you weren't going to follow through, he kicked off again. Why didn't you dish out the consequence?

It's hard though. My 5 year old is very tricky at times. Some mornings he's angelic, easy, wants to help and is laid back. Other days are very difficult where he will be in such a difficult mood and will be contrary at every turn. I lose my patience at times and often end up just getting him dressed which probably isn't the best.

Really useful @Carolthereindeer , thank you for sharing. And congratulations for actually managing to get to the bottom of some of your son's behaviour as it really is a minefield isn't it. I'll keep it in mind. I asked him this morning how he was feeling, how he was finding school mornings. He said he doesn't like not having time to play and having to walk in the cold because it takes ages. Could just be that I guess but still real stuff for him, so I was strict about making sure he was fully ready before he played, but I helped him along so he had loads of time to play. And DH did drive him in! It's not quite a mile so I hate driving when it's not pouring with rain but to be fair it is minus temperatures.

@EmmaDilemma5 I don't think you're wrong at all, the reasons I'm fairly certain DS is ND have gone on for a long time so I won't go into them now as it's not the point of the thread really, but in isolation the stubbornness alone can be very normal for lots of kids I'm sure!