To think controlled crying is cruel

[KazMa]

DH would like to try controlled crying/sleep training but I am totally against any sort of crying/leaving DS on his own upset. Any advice?

Here is current scenario:

DS just turned 7 months old and we have been co sleeping since the dreaded 4 month sleep regression, he also breastfeeds to sleep - will go to sleep without it but needs a lot of patting, rocking and walking around so it’s easier just to BF.

For a month now I am able to BF to sleep and then leave him in his cot in his own room for nap times and he will sleep 45mins to an hour per nap (3x per day).

At night however he will wake up and only go back to sleep if he is laying & feeding next to me in my bed. (Eg, bedtime at 8pm but he’ll wake at 8:45 and won’t go back to sleep.

Also as a pp said.... often they are crying because they are tired. A parent can be quite stimulating, i definitely had times where me picking up etc actually prevented my youngest in particular from nodding off, the resulting overtiredness then becomes a difficult cycle to break.

See I disagree that the benefit is only for the adult. Before we did a (gentle) form of CC with DD she was miserable all the time, grumpy, off her food, crying all the time because she was just so tired. The change when we did it was night and day. She became a smiley, sunny baby, sociable and engaged, it was like we finally saw who she was. And she's still just the same at 22. No regrets.

I work in child and adolescent mental health. I often get asked about the rise in poor mental health. The reasons are complex, but one aspect that is definitely overlooked is the poor understanding of the early years, the importance of the first 1001 days in brain development, and babys emotional and psychological needs. Of course it is damaging for small babies to be left to cry. The term 'self-soothing' and how it has been misconstrued by sleep consultants (who are not registered professionals) is one of the biggest cons of parenthood, 6 month old babies do not have the cognition or language to do such an emotionally challenging task. It is just false language to try and mask the fact you are leaving your baby to suffer and cry itself to sleep in extreme distress. The fact that it is so normalised in society is very troubling and to be honest when parents present me to their damaged child to 'fix' I wish I could get in my time machine back to their infancy and explain the importance of secure attachment and being emotionally responsive and available to your child. That includes even when you are tired and have to go to work. Parenting is hard.

Ultimately if you go to a Romanian orphanage none of the babies cry, this is not because they are self-soothing but because they are being emotionally neglected and know no one is coming.

I agree with MilkyYay, my oldest was clearly grumpy because he wasn't getting good quality sleep. After the success of controlled crying he slept through every night and stopped being grumpy. Later, of course, we reached the teens when he could sleep for England.

Where has a single person said they put their child down, close the door and ignore them for hours ?
Not one!
Helping your child get onto a good sleep routine is responsive parenting.
Poor sleep is a major factor in poor MH.
I work with someone who crashed their car due to insomnia.
Their insomnia is caused by ACE not sleep training.
Yes childhood trauma including violence and neglect.
Telling someone who's child isn't sleeping well that any type of sleep training, done in a responsive way that they are neglecting their child is nonsense.
I work in adult services and its always ACE, extreme neglect,violence, drug and alcohol abuse not some one who helped their baby sleep at night !

How do you know it isn't the impact of the months of sleep deprivation in the early years causing the problems. Seems a reach to blame things on a few nights of controlled crying, which in many people's experience resulted in a happier well rested baby.

YABU. Done properly it's not cruel and in many cases can save a family's sanity. It's certainly no worse than doing nothing about a baby not getting enough sleep.

I have name changed because I rave about her alot and don't want my other posts to identify me.

I agree and we had a really bad experience with a sleep trainer we hired in desperation when ds was 8 months. I really was desperate but it was so brutal and though he initially slept through, he was so clingy and constantly sad during the day I was wrecked with guilt. Within a month he was back to waking several times a night too so it was a huge fuck up.

We hired This woman instead and she was phenomenal. It took longer to rectify the mess we'd 0gotten into, but by the end he was sleeping beautifully and back to his happy self overall which was a relief. She lives hours from us so it was all on the phone. She was so kind and patient despite how negative I was. I was convinced we'd screwed him up for life. My partner left me a few months later and the disruption caused a regression but she got us back on track really quickly.

The gentle sleep solution doesn't use crying or leaving to cry, but I'd try to encourage them to sleep in their own cot from the early days. Totally against leaving a baby to cry

I agree. It's how I feel though, and not objective. Objectively (and distinguishing controlled crying from "cry it out"), I believe nothing indicates any sort of harm to the baby. However, to me, it feels wrong and cruel and against my instincts. We tried breifly with DD who woke every 20 mins if not in physical contact with me, and I had developed insomnia as a result, and I lasted about 15 mins and couldnt' do it anymore.

We have a sleep trainer living near up, and their house it up for sale. It's very posh. My DH always refers to it as "the house built on baby tears" 😂

I agree. It's how I feel though, and not objective. Objectively (and distinguishing controlled crying from "cry it out"), I believe nothing indicates any sort of harm to the baby.

Bingo. If everyone had such a rational outlook these threads would be far less unpleasant.

Ultimately if you go to a Romanian orphanage none of the babies cry, this is not because they are self-soothing but because they are being emotionally neglected and know no one is coming.

Not the same as a few nights of a few minutes of tears. They're neglected 24 hours a day. Dreadful false equivalence.

With the state of mental health these days, I don't believe parents of this generation or our generation should be patting themselves on the back and admonishing the methods used by older generations. It's not like we've cracked it, is it.

Ifyou are tlaking about the rise in mental heath, I am not sure I see the connection to controlled crying here. People, in the past, used to use much harsher ways of "training" their baby to sleep, and there has been a huge rise in attachment parenting styles in the last few decades with the increased awareness to the early years. So if anything is should be getting better not worse?

I can't believe the Romanian orphanage is still brought up as evidence after all these years. As though dangerously negelected children are a good control group.

@NewmummyJ yes and you make some good points BUT there is also a middle ground that enables parents to help babies learn healthy sleep habits without leaving them to cry. Posts like yours unfortunately also cause huge guilt amongst parents who have felt the need to resort to sleep training. Leaving a baby to cry endlessly is of course damaging but that is not what proper sleep training actually is.

Personally I have a major issue with the attachment parenting community in general and specifically the theory that no baby should be allowed to sleep independently and that it is cruel to help a baby to learn to self-settle.

It is entirely possible to respond to your baby's needs AND gently teach them to self-settle. And as other posters have pointed out, sleep training is not just for the benefit of parents: babies and children are happier when they get decent quality sleep!

@KazMa you ask for tips. There is no need to resort to controlled crying but you do need to stop either feeding or rocking to sleep. And ideally stop cosleeping as well. Cosleeping is lovely and I did periods of it with both my younger two DC but unfortunately it does encourage a baby to simply feed on and off all night long. If you feed or rock to sleep then every time your baby stirs in the night they will be reliant on your helping them get back to sleep. Which is why your baby wakes every 45 minutes to BF back to sleep - he doesn't know how to do anything else.

Some DC do just kind of learn to self settle and resettle on their own eventually but many do not.

You can work towards self-settling very gently - all three of mine responded really well to a consistent bath and story routine with a breastfeed and then being settled in their cots. I fed to sleep for the first 2/3 months during that 'fourth trimester' period, but then gradually worked towards putting them down before they fell asleep at both nap and bedtime, and they also were put down in the cot or moses basket for very short periods when awake. By which I mean, after a nappy change I'd pop baby into the cot and put the mobile on whilst I went and washed my hands - literally 1-2 minutes, but it got them used to the space. If they were happy watching the mobile or looking at toys, I might also take an extra two minutes with them in there whilst I made the bed, or put a wash on. Never ever left to cry, or even left there for more than 5 minutes at a time. It was just about getting them used to their space so it became familiar and reassuring, and wasn't then totally alien when they were expected to sleep there! My three all loved short periods of lying in the cot awake gazing up at the mobile or looking at black and white/colourful soft books or toys etc, even as very tiny babies.

At sleep times we started using a lullaby light as a sleep association at around 12 weeks. They were never left to cry at either nap or bedtime, I stayed in the room initially, lots of reassurance etc. Different things worked better for each of my three DC - eldest responded really well to being picked up, soothed and then put down again, middle one found that unsettling and was much better just being put in the cot and shushed for a while, youngest (easy third child!) just cracked on and was quite happy to lie in the cot and listen to the lullaby light music whilst I left the room. All three were able to self-settle somewhere between 3 and 4 months and not a moment of controlled crying involved.

It will take longer for an older baby and of course they are all different and some will take longer than others and some will respond better to different approaches, as my three did. But that doesn't mean to say it's impossible. Good luck.

I know this wasn't for me, but thought I'd mention I have 2, one amazing sleeper, one not so good but getting better. I tandem fed for a while (very small age gap) and still do at least 2 feeds a day alongside caring for toddler with SEN.
I love that he settles with bf, my eldest grew out of it quite quickly and preferred a bedtime drink from a cup, but I like knowing that after a feed, the little one will settle to sleep without any drama.

Just to mention OP, some of the posts against feeding to sleep and co-sleeping are horrendously misinformed. It doesn't mean your baby will never settle without you, or automatically need contact to sleep for years to come - I speak from experience, with one fantastic sleeper and one not. My second (worse sleeper), will happily nap and drink water or cows milk at nursery, they have never had any problems getting him down to sleep on his own. Apart from his first taster session at 1 year old, when he cried for 10/15 minutes due to me leaving him with someone who wasn't dad or me for the first time, he's had a ball (and often protested at me taking him home!).

Comparing sleep training with loving parents, to a romanian orphanage full of neglected kids is phenomenally helpful.

No one is talking about leaving a baby extinction cry it out. They are talking about accepting some crying as you gently, gradually transition a baby from expecting to sleep with a breast in their mouth 24/7, to sleeping longer stretches in a cot. With my two we gradually swapped in a mix of patting/singing etc until we got to just a hand on tummy with music on baby monitor, then just a bit of music.

Yes there was a little bit of grumbly crying & fussing, no it hasn't led to a neglected/damaged child! Both my kids are really happy loving kids and i have a great relationship with them and we all sleep well!!

Oh and some kids will not learn on their own.

A friend refused to accept any crying, as a result she has a 6 year old who still will not go to bed without mum cuddling her in bed for 40 minutes.

Is there any research to back this up? Do you really think that before Controlled Crying was marketed and sold as a product that it didn’t happen.
Neither my mother or grandmother breastfed or coslept with their babies. Which has become increasingly popular over last decade. I have older relatives say things like don’t pick up baby so quickly otherwise you will spoil them. That was way they did things when their babies were small.
Your reference to Romanian Orphanages is not the same thing. I would hope no one on this thread leaves their babies alone all day in a cot with only needs being met are hunger and nappy changing.

Yeah I agree with this.

I am against branding people who decide to use sleep training techniques as cruel parents. Because, provided they do some safely and in line with guidance, there is no evidence of harm. [btw the NHS apparently no longer recommend controlled crying, but prefer gradual retreat]

BUT I also massively dislike the narrative that if you don't - if you feed to sleep (or generally BF) and cosleep and pick up your baby when it cries and don't sleep train, well then it's just a rod in your own back and you've made your own bed so you can bloody well lie in (not sleeping mind you, because you will never sleep again). It's so incorrect, and so unsympathetic.

BUT I also massively dislike the narrative that if you don't - if you feed to sleep (or generally BF) and cosleep and pick up your baby when it cries and don't sleep train, well then it's just a rod in your own back

Co-sleeping/feeding to sleep works fine for some people, no judging that.

But honestly by 4 or 5, you can spot the kids who's parents think if they ever shed a tear they've failed. They are the kids on a play date who can't cope with not getting what they want immediately. Crying is a normal emotional response to disappointment and trying to parent with zero tears usually means giving in to a child's every demand. I think what most people are getting at is that you do not have to give a child everything they want, you need to provide for their needs.

I disagree. I've always responded to my children's emotions, and out and about they are super confident and just get on with life. Research indicates that children who are responded to emotionally tend to be better at coping with emotions in later life, and are more confident. So basically the opposite to what you are concluding.

Also, being responsive to your children doesn't mean giving them everything they want, just so you know.

Lastly, I want to do more than provide my children with their basic "needs", and only that. That sounds like a pretty shitty way to grow up.

@MilkyYay I don't agree with that at all.

Providing a baby/child comfort and support to sleep is entirely different to discipline.

I choose not to let my daughter cry to sleep, but if she wants something she can't have it's completely ok for her to cry and be upset about it. The difference is, is that I'm supporting her through those emotions or providing an alternative.

Cry it out, the baby is left isolated. Whether that's in intervals or not, they aren't supported when they want/need it.

I disagree. I've always responded to my children's emotions

I always respond to my childrens emotions too. I hug/console etc when they cry. But i don't approach things from the perspective that i mustn't ever do anything for fear of them crying.

Eg:
Baby takes toy off another child. I am going to return it. My child might cry about this but im going to do it anyway, then distract/console them.

Baby tries to grab item off shelf in shop. Im going to stop them, even though they will cry in response. I'll then respond to the tears.

Baby wants to sleep in my bed with my breast continuously in their mouth. I have an older child to parent during the day too so i cannot be sleep deprived to this extent, so im going to take them off the breast, then console them with cuddles, patting etc. They will cry about this change initially, i will console them and they'll get used to a new way of falling asleep, because as a family we need to balance everyone's wants a needs. If i try to never ever let them cry at all, everyone's else's needs will take a back seat to their wants.