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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Tiny violins out - private landlord having trouble

573 replies

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 12:54

I own a flat that I rent out because it no longer suits my needs to live there and I couldn't find a buyer without making a substantial loss during Covid (due to no private outdoor space).

I try to not be a dick - e.g. I charge under market rate, I don't increase the rent unless in between tenants, I get everything fixed as soon as I can (via management agency), I allow pets/children etc. All things that should be standard but too often are not.

Anyway, I have a tenant who is playing games. Every month for the last three she has had a problem paying the rent. First of all she wanted to move the payment date (fine, circs change, but she was a week after the agreed date), then she was late again, then she decided unilaterally she didn't have to pay because the boiler had broken and I couldn't get a new one installed over night. I reimbursed her for heaters to keep warm and had it replaced as soon as a reputable tradesman could install one - about a week in total. I get this isn't ideal and I offered a £100 discount as a goodwill gesture. She eventually paid.

I hate being a landlord and I am v shortly going on maternity leave with my second child so I need to sell especially as the income is now unreliable to use the equity to buy us a family home.

But I'm scared to put it on the market in case she takes that as free reign to stop paying altogether.

Does anyone have any advice that doesn't include "private landlords" and "scum of the earth" in the same sentence? I wouldn't expect her to let people traipse through her home at short notice and would hope to arrange maybe two open house mornings in Jan to minimise inconvenience - but I also expect her to stick to her side of the contract and pay the agreed rent during this time.

OP posts:
Original poster
roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 16:23

@BloodAndFire pahaha thanks for the laugh. A merry Christmas to you and yours too.

OP posts:
BloodAndFire · 12/12/2022 16:23

WombatChocolate · 12/12/2022 16:03

Yes, life changes. If there’s any prospect of life changing, you look damned carefully at your investments and make sure they are flexible enough to suit possibly changing needs. You wouldn’t go for a 10 year fixed saving account if you thought you might need the money. You don’t become a LL and make property, which is already an illiquid asset, even more illiquid and difficult to free-up. You ensure you understand the timescales that will be involved in ending a tenancy and claiming vacant possession….and recognise that in doing that you might not hit the peak market point, or be able to suit personal changes that happen in your own life in a short timeframe.

The question is, why should decent tenants who want some security have to move multiple times, because private accidental LLs haven’t really thought through whether they can let the property be available for more than a few months? ‘Life changing’ isn’t good enough. And I say that as a LL myself.

There do need to be mechanisms for removing problem tenants who wreck properties and don’t pay. This tenant couldn’t be out in one of these categories yet. The OP has identified a couple of reasons behind delayed payment, and although the tenant should have paid, it would be too early to say they are a problem tenant especially as OP hasn’t even properly spoken with the agent to find out.

In reality, this is a LL who can see a falling market, and rather late in the day has realised she’d like the value to put into her own property. Some LLs will be honest about these things and say it’s just a business. Others won’t be willing to accept responsibility but instead to point the finger and say ‘the tenant deserved it’ and build minor delays of payment into ‘problem tenant who needs evicting’.

I’m a LL. I hope to make money over the long term with my properties. I know that in the short term I won’t always make money. Voids happen, some tenants cause damage or don’t pay. Sometimes property prices drop. I have to be able to weather those storms. I also have to act both reasonably and legally. That means, that if I want to sell, Inwill think ahead. Ideally, a property will naturally become vacant and I will then not let it but renovate and market. If that’s not possible, I’d look to give 6 months notice if at all possible. Where tenants have been difficult, I have always communicated to understand the problem and been really proactive in looking for solutions, and then given notice if there doesn’t seem a way forward. And then I simply proceed legally and try to remove emotion from it. I know an eviction can take more than a year. Fortunately it’s only happened once, but I know it could happen again and is one of the risks of this business. If I couldn’t suck up this cost, I’d have been foolish to expose myself to it.

On a thread like this with tenants, LLs and people who are neither, it’s always worth everyone remembering that we are talking about investments and also people and their lives. Showing some respect for the latter always goes a long way and is really important. I’d say that anyone who can’t do that, certainly shouldn’t be in this market, but stick to inanimate objects or widgets. And please, no excuses about ‘life happening’. It might not be palatable to sell at certain points when you inherit or move in with a partner and there might be losses or costs involved in selling….but this still isn’t you being ‘forced’ into being an oblivious or selfish LL. It is always a choice, and if it’s a choice that leads to negative impacts on others, whilst you avoid possible negative impacts on yourself, I think you have to own it and take responsibility for the choices you make, rather than suggesting they somehow fell upon you, or the events of life moving in, absolve you having responsibility from impacting others.

Brilliant post 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏

WombatChocolate · 12/12/2022 16:23

thewayround, most LLs recognise that they have more financial flexibility than most tenants.

One of the most difficult aspects of being a tenant is insecurity of tenure. There are countless threads from tenants who have always been good tenants but over many years of renting, have had to move multiple times when given 2 months notice. They don’t get their deposits back before they need to pay another deposit, and often struggle to get it all back, even when only normal wear and tear has happened.

I can’t ‘flip it’ and see the duty on the LL to be financially robust as being the same. LLs almost always have another property and the consequences of a tenant moving on quickly are rarely them becoming homeless themselves. However, the consequences of a LL not thinking at least into the medium term and having contingency in place, meaning they almost randomly have to give notice so they can sell, has far more impact on a tenant. The 2 situations just aren’t comparable.

Essentially, sticking to the law is the key thing. I agree with that. It’s why LLs need to be really clued up and accept that although they can request their tenant to facilitate viewings, they can’t require it and to imply a poor reference will be forthcoming if a tenant refuses and sticks to their legal rights, is just shitty behaviour. Currently, the law allows LLs to be pretty financially irresponsible and not have any security in place. Many LLs will find that their margins have been left too tight and that with rising mortgage rates and increasing regulation, they need to sell. Who loses out? They might lose out a bit, but the tenant loses out more. To not acknowledge that, and to purely act in a way to 100% disregard the impact on tenants, seems wrong. And to leave yourself in a financially weak position where you have to do that, seems immoral…not illegal, but immoral. To go further and to deliberately time serving giving notice to create as much difficulty and upset as possible (just before Christmas) might again be perfectly legal, but if we’re talking about 2 weeks difference, is unnecessary and really shitty. You’d hope most humans would be better than that wouldn’t you. But sadly they’re not. Some are oblivious to others, some think their own personal needs can never be even slightly adjusted but trump all others, and some do purposely set out to make things as bad as possible for others.

BloodAndFire · 12/12/2022 16:23

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 16:23

@BloodAndFire pahaha thanks for the laugh. A merry Christmas to you and yours too.

There's nothing funny about the way you're acting. And I wasn't joking.

HamBone · 12/12/2022 16:24

antelopevalley · 12/12/2022 15:57

I would not allow it. Rents are too high to put up with that.

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Fair enough@antelopevalley . I never had a problem with it as, like the OP, I accepted that it wasn’t my property.

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:25

BloodAndFire · 12/12/2022 16:23

There's nothing funny about the way you're acting. And I wasn't joking.

Show quote history

No indeed

there’s something quite disturbing wishing norovirus on a toddler and pregnant woman

BloodAndFire · 12/12/2022 16:25

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:21

and to think that you might be a parent?

Show quote history

Yes. I'm not the person relishing my power to evict another parent and make them homeless just before Xmas.

People who abuse their wealth and power and torment others purely because they can are the worst people in the world.

BloodAndFire · 12/12/2022 16:26

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:25

No indeed

there’s something quite disturbing wishing norovirus on a toddler and pregnant woman

Show quote history

That was the mild version. I wonder if you missed the post where op said she's going to serve an eviction notice on her tenant, also a parent, before Xmas because "she's been a dick"?

SirMingeALot · 12/12/2022 16:28

@SirMingeALot yeah, I thought tenants were usually amenable to allowing viewings because that's been my own experience. I always allowed viewings when I was renting and I've looked around many many properties to rent over the years, 90% of which obviously had sitting tenants.

I think the times given here are what's given you an inaccurate picture. Private renting now is a completely different ballgame from what it was even a year or two ago. I never cared about viewings when I privately rented either, although there wasn't a chance in hell I was cleaning anything for them, but I never privately rented in this horrifying climate and by the sounds of things you haven't either. There's your answer.

BloodAndFire · 12/12/2022 16:28

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 16:23

@BloodAndFire pahaha thanks for the laugh. A merry Christmas to you and yours too.

Do you think your tenant who you're going to deliberately evict just before Xmas will have 'a merry xmas'?

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:28

BloodAndFire · 12/12/2022 16:25

Yes. I'm not the person relishing my power to evict another parent and make them homeless just before Xmas.

People who abuse their wealth and power and torment others purely because they can are the worst people in the world.

Show quote history

No you’re the lesson wishing norovirus on a toddler and pregnant woman

SirMingeALot · 12/12/2022 16:29

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:19

The law cannot force you

but

if it is explicitly stated in the tenancy agreement that the tenant should, with sufficient notice, permit viewings, then what the LL can do is reasonably give a poor reference and possibly impact how much the tenant receives back from deposit if the LL makes a successful claim that suffered a loss due to non adherence with contract on part of tenant

Be a laugh showing causation on that one.

drspouse · 12/12/2022 16:29

Also accidental landlord here: for the tenant, surely it's a case of if you want to stay in it a bit longer, you can facilitate viewings?
You never know, she might want to buy it.

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:30

SirMingeALot · 12/12/2022 16:29

Be a laugh showing causation on that one.

Show quote history

Easy. Agent confirms that was unable to hold viewings and so the property could not be marketed

GladysPew · 12/12/2022 16:30

She is playing games and pushing boundaries to see what she can get away with. This situation will not improve. Presuming she is out of the fixed period of her tenancy serve her a Section 21 Notice ASAP whilst you still can. Tell her beforehand but just as a formality.
Get rid.

BloodAndFire · 12/12/2022 16:30

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:28

No you’re the lesson wishing norovirus on a toddler and pregnant woman

Show quote history

So you think some words typed on a forum on the Internet are more harmful than making a woman and her children homeless just before Xmas, motivated by revenge?

Weird scale of 'morals' you have there.

Original poster
roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 16:30

I am not going to serve notice just before Christmas. Just to be clear.

Apologies if you didn't take a fairly tongue in cheek "fuck it and fuck the stress this woman's unreasonable behaviour is having on me and my baby" comment in the way it was intended.

I asked for advice about what best to do and I've had some really great support and insight. I will speak to the tenant directly to understand what's going on and try to find a positive solution that means she is not under undue stress or has to rush to find somewhere in the new year - but where I still receive rental payments and will regain access to my property in a good condition so I can sell in spring. Everything will be done above board, legally and with as much leeway as possible - hopefully from both sides.

Probs best to leave it now before people start being wankers like my tenant.

OP posts:
SirMingeALot · 12/12/2022 16:31

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:30

Easy. Agent confirms that was unable to hold viewings and so the property could not be marketed

Show quote history

The part about LL showing they would've got another tenant in on the basis of that is conspicuously absent.

BloodAndFire · 12/12/2022 16:34

@roarfeckingroarr ·

I've just looked and there's absolutely nothing similar available for the same price within 5 miles. This is greater London!

Good ideas re the section 8.

I was going to hold off serving notice until after Christmas but given what a dick she's been with the rent, I might not.

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:35

SirMingeALot · 12/12/2022 16:31

The part about LL showing they would've got another tenant in on the basis of that is conspicuously absent.

Show quote history

If the property went previously with the tenant easily.

If the agent confirms strong market for this kind of property at that price.

if the property did receive many interested calls but obviously didn’t pursue when realised couldn’t view

i could go on

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:36

Would be also interesting to note that the tenant herself no doubt appreciated at least one viewing!

dreamingbohemian · 12/12/2022 16:36

FFS you cannot withhold the deposit because the tenant exercised their legal right to not allow viewings. Stop talking bollocks.

Onnabugeisha · 12/12/2022 16:37

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:19

The law cannot force you

but

if it is explicitly stated in the tenancy agreement that the tenant should, with sufficient notice, permit viewings, then what the LL can do is reasonably give a poor reference and possibly impact how much the tenant receives back from deposit if the LL makes a successful claim that suffered a loss due to non adherence with contract on part of tenant

No. They don’t have to, even if the tenancy agreement says otherwise. It is well recognised by courts that this is an unenforceable contract term and really being a CF of a LL to put it in as it makes vulnerable people confused or unaware of their rights. The LL cannot give a bad reference over this or hold back deposit money for a tenant exercising their legal rights! Its a damage deposit in the event the tenant damages the property beyond normal wear and tear, it is not a “oh I lost a bit of money evicting you from the flat so I’m taking it off you deposit”

Tenants lose the most from evictions. Getting new deposit together. Paying for removals. Paying for post office redirect of mail. Time off work to home search and compete for viewings. Petrol costs driving around/train or bus fares to view places.

SirMingeALot · 12/12/2022 16:38

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:35

If the property went previously with the tenant easily.

If the agent confirms strong market for this kind of property at that price.

if the property did receive many interested calls but obviously didn’t pursue when realised couldn’t view

i could go on

Show quote history

You'd have to, in order to show causation. Remember, the burden of proof is on the landlord.

The rental market now isn't necessarily the same as when the tenant moved in, particularly if they've been there a while. The agent having had other interested people doesn't in itself mean the property would've been taken at a particular time, it will also depend on the state it was in at that particular time, which neither the agent nor putative tenant will actually have known because... they haven't seen it. These are not things that amount to evidence in themselves. Hence my point about showing causation being a laugh.

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:39

I keep on saying!!! Yes it is unenforceable

but there are reasonable grounds for a poor reference AND claim against deposit