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Tiny violins out - private landlord having trouble

573 replies

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 12:54

I own a flat that I rent out because it no longer suits my needs to live there and I couldn't find a buyer without making a substantial loss during Covid (due to no private outdoor space).

I try to not be a dick - e.g. I charge under market rate, I don't increase the rent unless in between tenants, I get everything fixed as soon as I can (via management agency), I allow pets/children etc. All things that should be standard but too often are not.

Anyway, I have a tenant who is playing games. Every month for the last three she has had a problem paying the rent. First of all she wanted to move the payment date (fine, circs change, but she was a week after the agreed date), then she was late again, then she decided unilaterally she didn't have to pay because the boiler had broken and I couldn't get a new one installed over night. I reimbursed her for heaters to keep warm and had it replaced as soon as a reputable tradesman could install one - about a week in total. I get this isn't ideal and I offered a £100 discount as a goodwill gesture. She eventually paid.

I hate being a landlord and I am v shortly going on maternity leave with my second child so I need to sell especially as the income is now unreliable to use the equity to buy us a family home.

But I'm scared to put it on the market in case she takes that as free reign to stop paying altogether.

Does anyone have any advice that doesn't include "private landlords" and "scum of the earth" in the same sentence? I wouldn't expect her to let people traipse through her home at short notice and would hope to arrange maybe two open house mornings in Jan to minimise inconvenience - but I also expect her to stick to her side of the contract and pay the agreed rent during this time.

OP posts:
HotChoxs · 16/12/2022 09:35

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 07:33

Yea, the entitlement and arrogance of LLs believing it’s not the tenants home (when in law it is), and these LLs thinking that the tenant has no right to quiet enjoyment of the property (when in law they do) and so the LL thinks they should get access to the property for ‘nothing’ and have photos of the tenants furnishings and belongings for ‘nothing’ for the house selling brochure and also that they can just have their estate agent and prospective buyers stomping through the tenants home gawping at how they live also ‘for nothing’

All because LL arrogantly assume the laws giving tenants these rights don’t apply to their property and think the tenant is such a piece of shit for daring to exercise their basic human rights codified in law. The entitlement of these LLs is breathtaking.

Yep. Selling the property at the tenants risk. Entitlement.

Nope, sell it once the tenant has left and chase the market down with no rental income and leave yourself in a worse position to negotiate. Your problem.

thewayround · 16/12/2022 10:01

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 09:30

And you think rent arrears don’t carry interest? And that tenants could just skip their rent?! They couldn’t. And you probably don’t know that any incident of being 2 months in arrears ever = eviction as soon as the moratorium ended. Plus tenants had to make up any missed rent payments by paying more. It wasn’t the same for mortgage holiday.

Banks could not take possession. Banks could not evict. And homeowners never had to pay extra to catch up missed mortgage payments. 🙄

Tenants were not in a ‘very strong position’ because rents started going up massively. Plus LLs used covid as a excuse to not carry out essential maintenance meaning that the rate of homes with illegal lifethreatening hazards went up from 1/5th private rentals to 1/4th of private rentals.

During covid notice period was extended to 6months.

You hold private LLs up to a very different standard to the banks, which is odd. Very odd.

WombatChocolate · 16/12/2022 10:50

When Banks look at their mortgage customers who are late one or two months with payment, or who get into serious arrears, they have a proper, professional and respectful approach. They don’t refer to their clients and customers as ‘dicks’, say ‘get rid’ or use language to refer to people as inferior beings.

Many people on this thread have used language and tone to indicate no respect for tenants - the people who are the LLs tenants and clients.

This thread hasn’t purely been about the legalities of what the rights of LLs and tenants are, but also evidence of ingrained atttiudes which go well beyond the law. Again, there is evidence of the view that only property owners deserve respect, flexibility and a proper programme of response to short term arrears, or even in times which can amount to years of full payment. There is a tone which suggests that even if tenants have paid in full for many months or even many many years, they cannot expect any consideration from the LL, beyond entirely what suits them and their timing.

In the end, tenants know that their home (and it is their home whilst they live in it under contract) isn’t in their ownership and a LL might one day sell. They know they have legal rights (although some LLs begrudge these or try to undermine them) and also that the property is owned by the LL and they can serve legal notice and the tenancy won’t be forever.

Why though, are some posters unable to see that LLs can have those rights, but can still treat their tenants, especially long term ones and ones with families with kids in schools, with some consideration? The kind of things I mean (and this isn’t about those who have trashed places or persistently not paid rent for months on end);

  • have a conversation and discussion about an intention to sell, possible timescales and any flexibility there might be
  • recognise that a one-off late payment from a tenant who has paid on time for months or years, isn’t a serious concern warranting eviction …but again a conversation might be useful if it happens a couple of times
  • have a conversation about any difficult maintenance issues such as broken boiler in depth if winter
Much of good LLing is about communication. Like it or not, LLs have a business that involves people and their most essential need. Recognising that agents might well not communicate effectively or quickly or be efficient in all kinds of areas is really important and knowing that by paying the agent a fee, you don’t absolve yourself of the tenant having a shitty experience. Accept that as part of being a LL there might sometimes be tricky messages or conversations to be had - about rent, maintenance, renewal or end of contracts. Be prepared to consider how it might feel from the other end and show some empathy and respect. That doesn’t mean being a pushover or putting up with long term non payment, or never ever being able to sell. It just means knowing you do need to think and plan ahead and not spring things on people and respectful communication is a vital ingredient of being a successful LL.

The trouble is when tenants become nameless widgets in people’s minds, rather than individuals and families who all need the basic essential of accommodation. It does not reflect on people well when they are rude, disrespectful and unprofessional in their comments or dealings with people.

The people I know who are the most successful LLs in terms of long term portfolios, are shrewd business people, but vitally, are people-people too. They are able to talk with tenants about maintenance, non-payment, legal compliance, contracts, giving notice, grievances etc etc. They can do all that whilst also knowing the tenants child is at a local school, or someone has lost their job. They still deliver difficult news about tenancies not being renewed or properties being sold sometimes, but they’ve always thought it through well in advance and factored the tenant into their decision making, so just make it a bit smoother. Doing that doesn’t feel like being a doormat to them, but a vital part of their success.

The OP here isn’t a professional. Tenants often have a rough deal under the so-called accidental LL, who hasn’t actually got the funds to run their business and weather some inevitable financial storms, the full awareness of legal responsibilities, or the skills and willingness needed to communicate effectively with their clients.
She wants to sell to release the cash to buy a family property. That’s at the heart of the issue, not a late payment after many months of full payment on time, or a reduced payment after an ongoing issue over boiler repair. In the end, there doesn’t have to be an ‘excuse’ to sell and it can be done legally and decently by giving someone more than the very party minimum notice they are entitled by law to. It can be done with consideration of their personal situation and some flexibility can normally be shown……although some LLs can’t give that as they have got themselves into a financial mess, or haven’t planned ahead to allow enough time to give really decent notice, because they haven’t thought ahead or seen the need to factor in what’s going on in their own lives soon enough. Especially when a LL says they need the cash from the property within 6 months, I think if it as poor business planning - property and LLing works on longer timescales than this. It can’t be subject to events which around up and happen sooner. That’s just not professional or fair on tenants.

Ginmonkeyagain · 16/12/2022 11:16

Very good post @WombatChocolate

I used to work in financial services regulation and if banks talked about or to home owners in mortgage arrears the way some have talked about tenants on here we would have been appalled.

As you say we expect people in arrears on their mortgage, energy bills or communications bills to be treated with compassion, fairness and respect, indeed there are even obligations on companies in these sectors with regard to customers in arrears. Why does that go out of the window when it is a tenant in arrears with their rent.

thewayround · 16/12/2022 12:39

WombatChocolate · 16/12/2022 10:50

When Banks look at their mortgage customers who are late one or two months with payment, or who get into serious arrears, they have a proper, professional and respectful approach. They don’t refer to their clients and customers as ‘dicks’, say ‘get rid’ or use language to refer to people as inferior beings.

Many people on this thread have used language and tone to indicate no respect for tenants - the people who are the LLs tenants and clients.

This thread hasn’t purely been about the legalities of what the rights of LLs and tenants are, but also evidence of ingrained atttiudes which go well beyond the law. Again, there is evidence of the view that only property owners deserve respect, flexibility and a proper programme of response to short term arrears, or even in times which can amount to years of full payment. There is a tone which suggests that even if tenants have paid in full for many months or even many many years, they cannot expect any consideration from the LL, beyond entirely what suits them and their timing.

In the end, tenants know that their home (and it is their home whilst they live in it under contract) isn’t in their ownership and a LL might one day sell. They know they have legal rights (although some LLs begrudge these or try to undermine them) and also that the property is owned by the LL and they can serve legal notice and the tenancy won’t be forever.

Why though, are some posters unable to see that LLs can have those rights, but can still treat their tenants, especially long term ones and ones with families with kids in schools, with some consideration? The kind of things I mean (and this isn’t about those who have trashed places or persistently not paid rent for months on end);

  • have a conversation and discussion about an intention to sell, possible timescales and any flexibility there might be
  • recognise that a one-off late payment from a tenant who has paid on time for months or years, isn’t a serious concern warranting eviction …but again a conversation might be useful if it happens a couple of times
  • have a conversation about any difficult maintenance issues such as broken boiler in depth if winter
Much of good LLing is about communication. Like it or not, LLs have a business that involves people and their most essential need. Recognising that agents might well not communicate effectively or quickly or be efficient in all kinds of areas is really important and knowing that by paying the agent a fee, you don’t absolve yourself of the tenant having a shitty experience. Accept that as part of being a LL there might sometimes be tricky messages or conversations to be had - about rent, maintenance, renewal or end of contracts. Be prepared to consider how it might feel from the other end and show some empathy and respect. That doesn’t mean being a pushover or putting up with long term non payment, or never ever being able to sell. It just means knowing you do need to think and plan ahead and not spring things on people and respectful communication is a vital ingredient of being a successful LL.

The trouble is when tenants become nameless widgets in people’s minds, rather than individuals and families who all need the basic essential of accommodation. It does not reflect on people well when they are rude, disrespectful and unprofessional in their comments or dealings with people.

The people I know who are the most successful LLs in terms of long term portfolios, are shrewd business people, but vitally, are people-people too. They are able to talk with tenants about maintenance, non-payment, legal compliance, contracts, giving notice, grievances etc etc. They can do all that whilst also knowing the tenants child is at a local school, or someone has lost their job. They still deliver difficult news about tenancies not being renewed or properties being sold sometimes, but they’ve always thought it through well in advance and factored the tenant into their decision making, so just make it a bit smoother. Doing that doesn’t feel like being a doormat to them, but a vital part of their success.

The OP here isn’t a professional. Tenants often have a rough deal under the so-called accidental LL, who hasn’t actually got the funds to run their business and weather some inevitable financial storms, the full awareness of legal responsibilities, or the skills and willingness needed to communicate effectively with their clients.
She wants to sell to release the cash to buy a family property. That’s at the heart of the issue, not a late payment after many months of full payment on time, or a reduced payment after an ongoing issue over boiler repair. In the end, there doesn’t have to be an ‘excuse’ to sell and it can be done legally and decently by giving someone more than the very party minimum notice they are entitled by law to. It can be done with consideration of their personal situation and some flexibility can normally be shown……although some LLs can’t give that as they have got themselves into a financial mess, or haven’t planned ahead to allow enough time to give really decent notice, because they haven’t thought ahead or seen the need to factor in what’s going on in their own lives soon enough. Especially when a LL says they need the cash from the property within 6 months, I think if it as poor business planning - property and LLing works on longer timescales than this. It can’t be subject to events which around up and happen sooner. That’s just not professional or fair on tenants.

Many people on this thread have used language and tone to indicate no respect for tenants

perhaps because they have seen their properties trashed; have spent an age chasing late payments; dealt with neighbours complaining about their tenants.

It is all so extreme. LLs are the baddies and the tenants are, without exception, the wide eyed and innocent party.

when in reality…. There’s so many variations

thewayround · 16/12/2022 12:40

They don’t refer to their clients and customers as ‘dicks’, say ‘get rid’ or use language to refer to people as inferior beings.

and how do you know what bank employees call clients amongst themselves?

thewayround · 16/12/2022 12:44

Tenants often have a rough deal under the so-called accidental LL, who hasn’t actually got the funds to run their business

and what about the tenants that have taken on a lease that they don’t have any funds to cover the rent in the event they have a change in their financial circumstances?

thewayround · 16/12/2022 12:45

have a conversation and discussion about an intention to sell, possible timescales and any flexibility there might be

and when a tenant hands in their notice, would you expect them to also do this?

thewayround · 16/12/2022 12:47

Oh yes and those bank employees? Well they don’t personally lose money if a client reneges of mortgage payment does she or he? 😂

WombatChocolate · 16/12/2022 13:27

It’s not an equal relationship. Pretending it is, is another refusal to acknowledge the reality for many tenants.

Many tenants scrape together their deposit and first months rent. Many have very little in the bank. Most LLs have their rental property, the home they live in and savings or other assets. The reality is that most tenants don’t have much behind them to weather storms in their finances. They still have to live somewhere. Ideally for many, that would be social housing, but there’s isn’t any, so they are reliant on the private rental sector.

No, I wouldn’t expect a tenant giving notice to have a discussion with the LL about the exact timing and what might be more convenient. I would expect a LL to be willing to maximise notice and to show an element of flexibility where possible. Again, it’s not the same scenario. A tenant served notice will be without a home. This isn’t the case for a LL when a tenant moves out.

Quite simply it’s not a relationship of equals where only money is changing hand and everyone is equal to begin with in terms of wealth and security. It’s so important to have sight of that…and still possible to run a very successful business.

When people say ‘they should have enough money behind them to manage if they lose their job for 6 months’ or ‘they should have enough money to put down for another deposit and months rent before getting their old deposit back’ or ‘they know it’s not their house and shouldn’t feel disappointed if their kids have to move house almost every year, are disingenuous and choosing to ignore the realities. That’s not hard-headed business acumen, it’s prejudice and ignorance.

It quite simply isn’t an equal financial relationship. Stop suggesting it is or that there is nothing incumbent upon LLs to acknowledge that and behave with decency. If you don’t want to deal with people then don’t get into a market which deals in the most essnnnneital himmmmann nnnneed…..

thewayround · 16/12/2022 13:44

No it is not an equal relationship.

Do you regard your relationship with your mortgage provider as “equal”?

because i regard them on substantially weightier ground than… me!! 😂

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 13:44

thewayround · 16/12/2022 10:01

During covid notice period was extended to 6months.

You hold private LLs up to a very different standard to the banks, which is odd. Very odd.

I don’t? I was pointing out that tenants are held to a higher standard than homeowners are..to the poster that was claiming the opposite.

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 13:49

Fantastic posts as always @WombatChocolate

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 13:50

thewayround · 16/12/2022 13:44

No it is not an equal relationship.

Do you regard your relationship with your mortgage provider as “equal”?

because i regard them on substantially weightier ground than… me!! 😂

Unless your mortgage provider is the Bank of Mum and Dad, it is hardly comparable to pretend a loan agreement with a large corporation is the same as a tenancy agreement with a landlord.

thewayround · 16/12/2022 14:06

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 13:50

Unless your mortgage provider is the Bank of Mum and Dad, it is hardly comparable to pretend a loan agreement with a large corporation is the same as a tenancy agreement with a landlord.

In the eyes of contract law, there’s no difference.

contract law is contract law. And a tenancy agreement is a contract. As is the mortgage agreement between a bank and an individual.

The main difference is that LLs will likely feel the hit of a tenancy reneging on agreement far harder than a bank!

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 14:12

thewayround · 16/12/2022 14:06

In the eyes of contract law, there’s no difference.

contract law is contract law. And a tenancy agreement is a contract. As is the mortgage agreement between a bank and an individual.

The main difference is that LLs will likely feel the hit of a tenancy reneging on agreement far harder than a bank!

There is a massive difference “in the eyes of contract law” because they are two different types of agreements operating within completely different regulatory environments and legal frameworks.

On a side note, btw, agreements are not technically contracts (per contract law) as a contract is a particular type of agreement…so it’s a bit wierd that you’re invoking “contract law” regarding agreements.

Ginmonkeyagain · 16/12/2022 14:13

Indeed. The law does not care if you are on the bones of your arse, "forced" by circumstance to rent out your one and only cherished home or a gimlet eyed professional with 4000 identical flats to rent out and millions in the bank. You enter a business relationship to provide an essential service then you are beholden to the law and the contract.

If you cannot afford to take a hit of a bad tenant or carry out timely repairs do not rent your property out. Literally no one is forced to become a landlord. It is a decision. A decision that for some is a very poor one.

Again as has been said before, tenants are human beings, with all the good and bad points of humans, not risk free mortgage repayment vehicles.

Gasmyarse · 16/12/2022 14:31

If she was reasonable paying the rent before could it be that she's lost her job or things have changed and she's now on benefits meaning she gets help with rent?

I'm just thinking maybe something has changed that's effected her ability to pay .

Duchesscheshire · 16/12/2022 14:51

excellent post and understanding of the intricacies of tenant/ landlord @WombatChocolate

thewayround · 16/12/2022 14:58

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 14:12

There is a massive difference “in the eyes of contract law” because they are two different types of agreements operating within completely different regulatory environments and legal frameworks.

On a side note, btw, agreements are not technically contracts (per contract law) as a contract is a particular type of agreement…so it’s a bit wierd that you’re invoking “contract law” regarding agreements.

How different?

do you understand contractual law? Because although the detail of the contract may be vastly different, contractual law is precisely that… the law relating to contracts

thewayround · 16/12/2022 15:00

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 14:12

There is a massive difference “in the eyes of contract law” because they are two different types of agreements operating within completely different regulatory environments and legal frameworks.

On a side note, btw, agreements are not technically contracts (per contract law) as a contract is a particular type of agreement…so it’s a bit wierd that you’re invoking “contract law” regarding agreements.

A tenancy agreement is a contact in contractual law.

it is commonly referred to as an agreement.

sometimes people may Indeed refer to their mortgage as an Agreement, but it is, as above, a contract and subject to contract law

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 15:30

thewayround · 16/12/2022 15:00

A tenancy agreement is a contact in contractual law.

it is commonly referred to as an agreement.

sometimes people may Indeed refer to their mortgage as an Agreement, but it is, as above, a contract and subject to contract law

Yes, I know, I didn’t say otherwise. But again, loans and tenancies are completely different from each other and so “under contract law” there are massive differences, it is incorrect to say there is “no difference” because different bits of contract law and regulations apply to them. You wrote that there is “no difference” and this isn’t the case, contract law isn’t one law for all.

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 15:36

thewayround · 16/12/2022 14:58

How different?

do you understand contractual law? Because although the detail of the contract may be vastly different, contractual law is precisely that… the law relating to contracts

Yes I do. I wrote contracts for decades between HMG and corporations. I also wrote tons of agreements that were not contracts as well.

What I am saying, beyond the T&Cs being different the laws and regulations pertaining to these contracts are also quite different. Contract law is not as simple as all contracts have the same laws and regulations applying to them. There are differences.

For example, employment contracts are contracts too, but it’s so complex and different that it’s even its own legal speciality. The same with international contracts…still contract law but separate legal speciality.

Mortgages are nothing like tenancies.

thewayround · 16/12/2022 15:46

Onnabugeisha · 16/12/2022 15:30

Yes, I know, I didn’t say otherwise. But again, loans and tenancies are completely different from each other and so “under contract law” there are massive differences, it is incorrect to say there is “no difference” because different bits of contract law and regulations apply to them. You wrote that there is “no difference” and this isn’t the case, contract law isn’t one law for all.

I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

loans and tenancies are different BUT both deal with the emotive issue of peoples homes and both are financial and both ate subject to to contract law and so any unfair term in a tenancy agreement in the eyes of the law is not legally enforceable.

So as long as the LL keeps to the contract terms then… I don’t have a problem with what happens.

thewayround · 16/12/2022 15:52

What part of the OP’s situation do you regard as her enforcing what would constitute a legally unenforceable unfair contract term? Do you think she is failing to adhere with the tenancy agreement?

or is your issue more of the ethical one about this being a “home” etc etc ?

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