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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Tiny violins out - private landlord having trouble

573 replies

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 12:54

I own a flat that I rent out because it no longer suits my needs to live there and I couldn't find a buyer without making a substantial loss during Covid (due to no private outdoor space).

I try to not be a dick - e.g. I charge under market rate, I don't increase the rent unless in between tenants, I get everything fixed as soon as I can (via management agency), I allow pets/children etc. All things that should be standard but too often are not.

Anyway, I have a tenant who is playing games. Every month for the last three she has had a problem paying the rent. First of all she wanted to move the payment date (fine, circs change, but she was a week after the agreed date), then she was late again, then she decided unilaterally she didn't have to pay because the boiler had broken and I couldn't get a new one installed over night. I reimbursed her for heaters to keep warm and had it replaced as soon as a reputable tradesman could install one - about a week in total. I get this isn't ideal and I offered a £100 discount as a goodwill gesture. She eventually paid.

I hate being a landlord and I am v shortly going on maternity leave with my second child so I need to sell especially as the income is now unreliable to use the equity to buy us a family home.

But I'm scared to put it on the market in case she takes that as free reign to stop paying altogether.

Does anyone have any advice that doesn't include "private landlords" and "scum of the earth" in the same sentence? I wouldn't expect her to let people traipse through her home at short notice and would hope to arrange maybe two open house mornings in Jan to minimise inconvenience - but I also expect her to stick to her side of the contract and pay the agreed rent during this time.

OP posts:
antelopevalley · 12/12/2022 15:59

@Lavenderflower Which means renting to very young people. Nobody except a parent is going to take on that risk.

Cherrysoup · 12/12/2022 16:01

Wimpeyspread · 12/12/2022 13:47

Love how everyone says ‘evict’ her as if it’s that easy!! My tenant has paid no rent for over a year, does not communicate with anyone and has ignored Section 21 - now having to instruct solicitor to get her out

You can take action after 3 months. No way would I wait a year.

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:01

antelopevalley · 12/12/2022 15:57

I would not allow it. Rents are too high to put up with that.

Sorry i don’t understand.

you wouldn’t allow viewings? Even if you’d handed in your notice as the tenant?

WombatChocolate · 12/12/2022 16:03

Yes, life changes. If there’s any prospect of life changing, you look damned carefully at your investments and make sure they are flexible enough to suit possibly changing needs. You wouldn’t go for a 10 year fixed saving account if you thought you might need the money. You don’t become a LL and make property, which is already an illiquid asset, even more illiquid and difficult to free-up. You ensure you understand the timescales that will be involved in ending a tenancy and claiming vacant possession….and recognise that in doing that you might not hit the peak market point, or be able to suit personal changes that happen in your own life in a short timeframe.

The question is, why should decent tenants who want some security have to move multiple times, because private accidental LLs haven’t really thought through whether they can let the property be available for more than a few months? ‘Life changing’ isn’t good enough. And I say that as a LL myself.

There do need to be mechanisms for removing problem tenants who wreck properties and don’t pay. This tenant couldn’t be out in one of these categories yet. The OP has identified a couple of reasons behind delayed payment, and although the tenant should have paid, it would be too early to say they are a problem tenant especially as OP hasn’t even properly spoken with the agent to find out.

In reality, this is a LL who can see a falling market, and rather late in the day has realised she’d like the value to put into her own property. Some LLs will be honest about these things and say it’s just a business. Others won’t be willing to accept responsibility but instead to point the finger and say ‘the tenant deserved it’ and build minor delays of payment into ‘problem tenant who needs evicting’.

I’m a LL. I hope to make money over the long term with my properties. I know that in the short term I won’t always make money. Voids happen, some tenants cause damage or don’t pay. Sometimes property prices drop. I have to be able to weather those storms. I also have to act both reasonably and legally. That means, that if I want to sell, Inwill think ahead. Ideally, a property will naturally become vacant and I will then not let it but renovate and market. If that’s not possible, I’d look to give 6 months notice if at all possible. Where tenants have been difficult, I have always communicated to understand the problem and been really proactive in looking for solutions, and then given notice if there doesn’t seem a way forward. And then I simply proceed legally and try to remove emotion from it. I know an eviction can take more than a year. Fortunately it’s only happened once, but I know it could happen again and is one of the risks of this business. If I couldn’t suck up this cost, I’d have been foolish to expose myself to it.

On a thread like this with tenants, LLs and people who are neither, it’s always worth everyone remembering that we are talking about investments and also people and their lives. Showing some respect for the latter always goes a long way and is really important. I’d say that anyone who can’t do that, certainly shouldn’t be in this market, but stick to inanimate objects or widgets. And please, no excuses about ‘life happening’. It might not be palatable to sell at certain points when you inherit or move in with a partner and there might be losses or costs involved in selling….but this still isn’t you being ‘forced’ into being an oblivious or selfish LL. It is always a choice, and if it’s a choice that leads to negative impacts on others, whilst you avoid possible negative impacts on yourself, I think you have to own it and take responsibility for the choices you make, rather than suggesting they somehow fell upon you, or the events of life moving in, absolve you having responsibility from impacting others.

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:04

And?

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:06

@WombatChocolate

flip your “life changing and you prepare for its” over to the tenant

Rented a flat that with very little back up in place if financial circumstances were to change

Onnabugeisha · 12/12/2022 16:06

So, agree with pp that you need to serve her a section 21 notice, however get legal advice because it has to be done properly. There are rules like you cannot serve it until 6months into the tenancy and if you’ve been renewing say a fixed term 12 month tenancy and she’s not on a rolling tenancy, you may have to wait to serve the section 21. You also need to ensure that the gas safety cert, electrical condition cert is up to date, and she’s been given the tenants rights Gov. Handbook. There’s probably other stuff too, this is off the top of my head as I’m a tenant. If any little thing is wrong the Section 21 is invalid and that can put you in exactly the situation you don’t want, a pissed off tenant not paying rent and destroying your flat.

I agree too with the posters that said evict her and then put it on the market after she is out. This gives you the chance to present the flat looking pristine. It’s tempting to have a tenant in there paying rent while the house is on the market, but tenants the the right to refuse access for viewings, refuse access for photos to market the flat and refuse any for sale signs going up. These are all well within her rights under English law.

So you will have to probably commit to paying the mortgage from savings after she is evicted. Hopefully, she will not squat so you won’t need to use the courts to enforce the eviction.

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:07

As long as absolutely every single legal requirement is followed… I have absolutely squat all issue with what a LL does or doesn’t do

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:08

Didn’t you have rent cover Op? When I was a Ll I had in place with direct line

dreamingbohemian · 12/12/2022 16:09

Thank you for saying all that @WombatChocolate you sound like an amazing LL who really gets it.

It is indeed really frustrating when people say they have no choice. To take the earlier example, if you want to move across country for some reason, you have the choice to sell up and bank that money for the future, or to rent it out but in full knowledge there are all sorts of risks and responsibilities with that. Or, you could decide not to move. There is nothing 'accidental' about it. Own your choice.

SirMingeALot · 12/12/2022 16:10

I've only ever seen refusal to allow viewings on Mumsnet. Never have I refused viewings when renting a property - whether the landlord wanted to sell or I was moving on - and I haven't heard this colloquially either. I thought it was standard that you work with the lettings agent to find mutually acceptable time to allow a reasonable number of viewings.

You were kidding yourself if you assumed it was standard for a person who is privately renting to try and assist you in your efforts to sell their home from under them, in a climate where private renting is a bigger nightmare than it has been in a looooong time. That was very naive. It's sensible to factor in the reality that people will be more interested in their own interests than yours.

Cherrysoup · 12/12/2022 16:10

Notaninterestingfact · 12/12/2022 15:27

Would the fact that the property market is about to crash have any input into your sudden urgency with selling your asset?

Really? I keep hearing this, still waiting for the hammer to fall.

I’d say she wants to sell because the tenant is being flaky and it’s very stressful having a non-paying tenant with the prospect of paying a fortune to get her out-solicitors then bailiffs then repairs to property if the tenant decides to neglect/destroy it.

caringcarer · 12/12/2022 16:11

Serve a section 2. That gives tenant 2 month's to find somewhere else. Don't expect her to leave after the 2months. You will likely need to go to court to get her evicted. It will probably take 6months before she leaves unless you get lucky and she moves in with a friend. I'd consider offering her £500 to move out after section 21 served, so within 2 month's. That would pay for her removals. If she did not move out in the 2 month's I'd remove offer of £500. Put it all in writing.

mathanxiety · 12/12/2022 16:12

If you're currently turning a profit on the property, would you consider making the tenant an offer of a lowered rent if she agrees to a direct debit rental payment for a certain number of months, after which she will vacate? Another element might be for her to allow viewings from 2-4 on Sundays or whenever.. This would require a new letting contract/ lease. This would have to be in accordance with overarching tenant rights of course and you might still end up with a tenant who refuses to budge and the eviction process...

I agree with everything WombatChocolate says here.

It looks as if your earliest market date might be early 2024. Your tenant has rights and there are legal processes which must be followed in order to preserve those rights. Rights for one are rights for all.

Just because you always let LLs do viewings doesn't mean it's OK for every landlord to be able to insist on viewings, to basically allow strangers into the homes of other people whenever they needed to, regardless of illness, new baby, kids studying for exams, family gatherings, death in the family, etc.

I've sold a house under pressure after divorce and let people in any time my selling agent wanted to show them around. We had about 70 viewings, often at very short notice. It was stressful AF.

Sussexspanielmum · 12/12/2022 16:12

I have just sold a rental flat which finally completed last week- I had decided to put the money into something else and didn't want the hassle of a rental anymore with increasing regulations I had to comply with.

I gave my tenant of over 10 years standing six months notice as she was thinking about buying it from me. Sadly she could not really afford it and was risk adverse so it was marketed instead. I worked with to agree a viewings day so she was not inconvenienced and fortunately got an offer from this. Despite it being just a seller me and and a buyer the buying process took over 5 months to achieve- timeframes are being pushed out alot at the moment so this is worthwhile bearing in mind. There was no major hold up just delays in people replying and a buyers solicitor who was pretty useless. I was worried with the increasing interest rates and delays that my buyer would withdraw and it was a huge relief when we completed.

My tenant struggled to find another property and I begun to think she would not move out but suddenly right at the end of the notice period under sec 21 she found somewhere and moved out. She did admit to me that she had found it hard as I had rarely increased the rent so she was now having to find over £200 per month more to fund a similar flat- she appreciated me being kind but it can sometimes back fire on you. Its after all a business isn't it.

I have had the flat unoccupied for 4 months and had to pay all the charges, mortgage and council tax so do bear this in mind.
Good luck OP

Onnabugeisha · 12/12/2022 16:14

SirMingeALot · 12/12/2022 16:10

I've only ever seen refusal to allow viewings on Mumsnet. Never have I refused viewings when renting a property - whether the landlord wanted to sell or I was moving on - and I haven't heard this colloquially either. I thought it was standard that you work with the lettings agent to find mutually acceptable time to allow a reasonable number of viewings.

You were kidding yourself if you assumed it was standard for a person who is privately renting to try and assist you in your efforts to sell their home from under them, in a climate where private renting is a bigger nightmare than it has been in a looooong time. That was very naive. It's sensible to factor in the reality that people will be more interested in their own interests than yours.

No, it’s not standard at all to allow viewings and photos of your belongings to go online when a LL is selling your rental home & evicting you. LLs can ask, but the law says they cannot force you even if you signed a tenancy contract saying you would because the law trumps the agreement.

SirMingeALot · 12/12/2022 16:15

Onnabugeisha · 12/12/2022 16:14

No, it’s not standard at all to allow viewings and photos of your belongings to go online when a LL is selling your rental home & evicting you. LLs can ask, but the law says they cannot force you even if you signed a tenancy contract saying you would because the law trumps the agreement.

Yes, although I think OP gets the legal position but just assumed her tenant would be willing to let her do what she's not entitled to do. Which was daft.

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:16

Why so hung up about the use of the word “accidental”

Seems totally reasonable to use that word when you didn’t buy a property with the purpose of letting out and never intended to but a change in circumstance and an unfavourable selling market meant that in order to continue to cover mortgage payments…. You let the property.

antelopevalley · 12/12/2022 16:16

And even if tenants do not allow it, they do not have to tidy up the house beforehand or not mention problems with neighbours or similar.

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 16:17

@Notaninterestingfact She's paying under market rate; if I wanted to continue being a landlord hell bloody no I could up it by a couple of hundred pounds a month. I didn't force her to move in. She should pay the rent as she agreed to do.

Imminent property crash... heard lots about this for years, on and off. London property is a lot more secure than other parts of the country. I'm looking to sell this place and use the equity to buy a decent house just outside London. If the flat reduces in price, I would imagine the potential houses will also see a price fall. I'm not too worried.

OP posts:
antelopevalley · 12/12/2022 16:18

Cherrysoup · 12/12/2022 16:10

Really? I keep hearing this, still waiting for the hammer to fall.

I’d say she wants to sell because the tenant is being flaky and it’s very stressful having a non-paying tenant with the prospect of paying a fortune to get her out-solicitors then bailiffs then repairs to property if the tenant decides to neglect/destroy it.

Unlikely to crash. But on average house prices fell by 2% last month.

thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:19

The law cannot force you

but

if it is explicitly stated in the tenancy agreement that the tenant should, with sufficient notice, permit viewings, then what the LL can do is reasonably give a poor reference and possibly impact how much the tenant receives back from deposit if the LL makes a successful claim that suffered a loss due to non adherence with contract on part of tenant

BloodAndFire · 12/12/2022 16:19

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thewayround · 12/12/2022 16:21

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and to think that you might be a parent?

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 16:22

@SirMingeALot yeah, I thought tenants were usually amenable to allowing viewings because that's been my own experience. I always allowed viewings when I was renting and I've looked around many many properties to rent over the years, 90% of which obviously had sitting tenants.

I think I might try to speak to the tenant directly and gauge her thoughts about what is reasonable and whether a bit more notice to leave might guarantee she pays the rent until d-day. There's a possibility that the agency has been slow to pass on the problems she's had (e.g. the boiler, the dishwasher also broke and I replaced it straight away to my knowledge but who knows how long she was waiting before they contacted me) and she's not actually difficult, she's desperate. I would be happy to agree a rent reduction to allow viewings in the last month of her tenancy. Give and take.

OP posts: