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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To stop the kids going down to him?

88 replies

Stressymam · 04/12/2022 16:15

My 2 eldest children have weekend visits to their dad every other weekend (unless the children decide to stop home or he has to work).

About a month and half ago my youngest daughter let slip that dad has been stealing. I asked her what he had stolen and she said shopping like what we get. I asked was it food or clothes or something else and she said some was food and some was cleaning stuff and car fresheners. I asked her how did she know he had stolen (I was unsure of when she was referring to him stealing) and she said he gave stuff to her and her older sister and told them to keep quiet and keep walking out of the shop.

A few days later I asked both kids about what they had been asked to carry and take out of the shop and they both said that he does it every time they go down and they go shopping with him. He has even taken trolleys of shopping. (I only have their word on the trolley part)

I decided to ring him and ask him what has been going on. He agreed he had asked the girls to carry things out of the shops for him a few times and he had done it because money was tight. I told him his financial situation was none of my concern or the kid's concern either. I told him not to rope the kids in. (they are 10 and 11 and looking on Internet they can be arrested etc) He agreed he wouldn't do it again with the kids. I said I would keep them home if I found he did it again.

Roll on to today kids come home and say he had them carrying bleach and milk and tissues out of sainsburys down were he lives. Not only that he filled his car with fuel and filled a petrol tank and put it in the footwell where the kids were sat. And then backed out of the petrol station. I couldn't care about the petrol as that is soley on him but yet again he is using the kids, aswell as their 4 year old sister, to steal things.

I am beyond livid. I have explained to them they can be arrested and held as they are 10 and over. I live 2 hours away from where he lives and I would be devastated if I received a phonecall to say they had been arrested with him. I don't want that for them. I want to stop them going down because he clearly isn't listening and I warned him they would stop with me if he did it again with them. He clearly has no care for them or anything that can come of this. I've said the kids I will think about whether they go down again over the next week. I think I should keep them home but I wanted other people's view, opinions and perspective of this situation. Please help because I don't know where to go from here.

Many thanks for reading.

OP posts:
DonnaBanana · 04/12/2022 17:45

“Keep them home” is a bit of an understatement when he is abusing the kids. Yes, this is what using his power over them to break the law actually is.

SecretVictoria · 04/12/2022 17:47

It definitely is abuse and a huge safeguarding red flag. Call SS and see what their advice is maybe?

MoanySloney · 04/12/2022 17:53

For the love of God, you cannot leave this up to the kids to decided. You are an adult and their parent, act like it. Their dad is involving them in crime. You need to protect them before something happens.

gogohmm · 04/12/2022 17:57

I personally would write to him by email and say that you have been informed by the children of his continued stealing and that you will be taking action as your children must not be party to unlawful activities. If he writes back confirming the thefts but says it won't happen again you have proof of the crimes - in this case i would say to him he has one more chance, if it happens again you will be taking legal advice, hopefully enough to stop him as this is best all around. I would also suggest passing on resources who can help him eg using a benefits calculator, cap, cab, food bank or to simply talk to you - if he's in a financial mess then he needs help, and people can help

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 04/12/2022 17:57

He’s using the kids as a front to shoplift and teaching them that it’s right to steal. Maybe the odd time I’d let slip but this is happening on a regular occurrence. I’d tell the mother of the other youngest child too and let her decide what to do.

Original poster
Stressymam · 04/12/2022 18:03

I know he is using the girls. I have no way of getting into contact with the little ones kum. She isn't on Facebook and I don't have an email or number for her. I don't even know any of her friends to try and get a message to her. I haven't seen her in years and I have no idea where she lives either.

OP posts:
SavingKitten · 04/12/2022 18:03

I wouldn’t let them go, at their ages it won’t be long before he’s sending them to the shop on their own to steal bits for him, it’s just wrong what he’s doing.

Needtoseethatbiggerpicture · 04/12/2022 18:04

OP - what does he do for a living? Is he genuinely struggling or do you consider that he has always behaved badly and this is just another indicator of that?

I don't know what to advise really. It's not great that the kids lose contact with him but neither should it be the case that they are put in this position and ultimately, that they are questioned by police because sooner or later, he'll get caught. Desperate people do stupid things - is he desperate or something else?

SavingKitten · 04/12/2022 18:05

Also I’d text him about this, not phone so that hopefully you end up with written evidence

Original poster
Stressymam · 04/12/2022 18:10

His financial situation is of his own doing. He delivers Windows and doors to building sites all over the country. His house is paid for and he has an old car. He uses the works fuel card to fill his car up. He has told me and my partner this on numerous occasions. Even offered to fill our car up of I ever took the children down. He doesn't pay maintenance and as I have said previously he only has them every other weekend. Very rare he has them longer and if by the off chance they are it's with his mother and she collects them and drops them back home again. I still get debt letters for him here and we have been apart 9 years. Even the person who lives in my old house has had bailiffs for him. His insurance is at my old address because it makes it cheaper for him. But as I have said his finances are none of mine or the girls concern.

OP posts:
RandomPerson42 · 04/12/2022 18:11

You need to involve the police asap and do not let your kids visit him

NoWayRose · 04/12/2022 18:43

Oh my god. Definitely keep them away. They are victims now, but they’re being taught shoplifting skills by their father, poor things. What happens when they are teenagers? I think it would be good to get the police involved, so they can see what happens. Also, he’s willing to put them up to this kind of crime, what other ways might he involve them. No no no

Original poster
Stressymam · 04/12/2022 18:58

Thanks for the replies. I think I will phone social services in the morning and the non emergency police and go from there. I might mention it to the primary and grammar school. Just so they are aware and obviously if things progress then the schools will need to know. I might see what social services say first though about notifying the schools. I am wondering if I should message him to tell him I know he's been stealing again and he's roped the girls in but then again I might not and just see what comes of social services and the police say if anything. So frustrated with him that he would be that stupid. Thinks very highly of all 3 of his children. Just wish I could get into contact with their sisters mum. I would say she would be too young at 4 to tell her mum what's been going on.

OP posts:
Ilovelurchers · 05/12/2022 13:55

I think reporting your children's father to the police and social services is an extreme action to take which will have far reaching consequences for him and them and the relationships between you all. If your children love him I would think very carefully about doing it.

He is shop-lifting from supermarkets. Clearly some posters on here find this an extremely immoral action, and perhaps you do too - morality is subjective. At the end of the day you have to do what you believe to be best for your children of course. But I don't think that's ethically straight forward.

If everybody who shoplifted was banned from seeing their kids, there would be a lot of unhappy children in the world......

TrentCrimm · 05/12/2022 14:03

Ilovelurchers · 05/12/2022 13:55

I think reporting your children's father to the police and social services is an extreme action to take which will have far reaching consequences for him and them and the relationships between you all. If your children love him I would think very carefully about doing it.

He is shop-lifting from supermarkets. Clearly some posters on here find this an extremely immoral action, and perhaps you do too - morality is subjective. At the end of the day you have to do what you believe to be best for your children of course. But I don't think that's ethically straight forward.

If everybody who shoplifted was banned from seeing their kids, there would be a lot of unhappy children in the world......

It's not the shoplifting per se that's the issue though, it's getting his children to shoplift for him

That must be so stressful for them. They've told their mum about it, so if I was the OP I would take charge of the situation so they aren't put in that position again- it really is abusive to subject children to that pressure.

Original poster
Stressymam · 05/12/2022 14:11

Thank you for replying. If he was shoplifting alone then I have no say whatsoever. He is a grown man and is able to take the consequences should he be caught. However, he isn't. I have spoken to social services this morning and a case worker will be ringing me this week. They have all the details of what has been going on to pass on to the relevant parties.

I don't want my children to be upset by not seeing him however I am not prepared to have them feel the way they do when he forces them to carry stolen goods from a shop. As for questioning morality with regards to shoplifting, I think it's irrelevant. A shop/supermarket is a business. They take hits and losses every single day. I know this because I work in a food store. If morality comes into it he clearly has none when he does this with his children. I have thought all night and most of the morning about what he has done and I know people are going to get hurt regardless of the path this ends up going down.

My local safeguarding hub who I contacted this morning is happy the girls are with me for the next 2 weeks so I am happy. I should know by the end of this week what is going to happen. He's committing criminal acts and I will not have the girls associated with that.

OP posts:
KettrickenSmiled · 05/12/2022 14:21

Stressymam · 04/12/2022 17:37

Yeah I think I will ask them through the week how they would feel. They are old enough to make that decision themselves and have been doing for the last couple of years. I just can't believe he would be so stupid and having been asked to knock it on the head before he gets caught and they have to witness that has clearly fallen on deaf ears. They aren't happy doing it but feel they have no choice. I know it's not abuse or putting their lives in danger but it wouldn't create an ideal situation. I want to do what is right by the girls without looking like some miffed ex trying to get one over on him. I assure you that is not the case.

They are NOT old enough to make that decision themselves OP.
You are their only responsible, law-abiding parent, so you need to make it for them. The fact that they feel they have no choice but to go along with his Fagin act shows you why YOU need to be the one making choices for them right now.

Also - you need to keep your word, or your ex will know that he can keep doing this, & pushing your buttons in whatever other ways he chooses.
I said I would keep them home if I found he did it again.

PP have made good points about the child arrangement order.
As there isn't currently one in place, you won't be breaking it by keeping them home, & he's unlikely to apply for one himself, given the cost. I'm not sure of the terminology these days, but I would want to consult some kind of Welfare Officer about the problem. If this comes to a head, you are going to need SS on your team, & I'd want to ensure that they could see that I was the responsible., transparent parent. I'd also ask them for advice about how to legally prevent him having unsupervised access. He's coercing your children into criminal activity OP - I think you'd find that SS would take you seriously.

KettrickenSmiled · 05/12/2022 14:24

I know it's not abuse or putting their lives in danger

It absolutely IS abuse OP - it's coercive control, a crime now punishable in UK law by up to 5 years jailtime. (Maybe he can ask for his petty thieving sentence to run concurrently?)

And while not actually endangering their lives, it is demeaning them, reducing them, eroding their boundaries. It doesn't need to be life-threatening to be all kinds of wrong.

KettrickenSmiled · 05/12/2022 14:30

Stressymam · 04/12/2022 18:58

Thanks for the replies. I think I will phone social services in the morning and the non emergency police and go from there. I might mention it to the primary and grammar school. Just so they are aware and obviously if things progress then the schools will need to know. I might see what social services say first though about notifying the schools. I am wondering if I should message him to tell him I know he's been stealing again and he's roped the girls in but then again I might not and just see what comes of social services and the police say if anything. So frustrated with him that he would be that stupid. Thinks very highly of all 3 of his children. Just wish I could get into contact with their sisters mum. I would say she would be too young at 4 to tell her mum what's been going on.

Good plan OP.

Do more than mention it to the schools though - request a meeting with the safeguarding leads at each school & outline your concerns for the children. They may be able to give you very useful advice - & you will also then have a documented official record of how the DC have been used by your ex.

Don't message him. Don't give him any indication that you know more about it, are thinking about it, & certainly not that you are taking action.
Information is power - don't give him any.
Arm yourself with all the official service personnel you can muster, none of them are going to think you are making mountains out of molehills or acting the vengeful ex. Far from it - you are the concerned mother, looking to safeguard her DC & responsibly reaching out to professionals.

CrazyDogLady2022 · 05/12/2022 14:42

I would be absolutely heartbroken to know my ex had coerced my children into committing a crime and as they are old enough to know right from young, as yours must be, I can't imagine how they would feel knowing someone they loved and trusted was making them do something they knew was wrong.

I hope Social Services are able to help and support you and your children through this.

CrazyDogLady2022 · 05/12/2022 14:57

Ilovelurchers · 05/12/2022 13:55

I think reporting your children's father to the police and social services is an extreme action to take which will have far reaching consequences for him and them and the relationships between you all. If your children love him I would think very carefully about doing it.

He is shop-lifting from supermarkets. Clearly some posters on here find this an extremely immoral action, and perhaps you do too - morality is subjective. At the end of the day you have to do what you believe to be best for your children of course. But I don't think that's ethically straight forward.

If everybody who shoplifted was banned from seeing their kids, there would be a lot of unhappy children in the world......

Whether it's immoral or not, it IS a crime and one he is also forcing his children to commit, despite them knowing it is wrong. This is appalling behaviour from a parent. what happens if he sends them in to steal things alone and they get caught? Or even if they get caught when with him. Imagine how frightened they would be...

Clarinet1 · 05/12/2022 15:17

The other thing I wonder about this is - Where is such money as he has going? Drink? Drugs? Gambling? Any of which would have a negative impact on his ability to be a good parent.

KettrickenSmiled · 05/12/2022 15:19

Clarinet1 · 05/12/2022 15:17

The other thing I wonder about this is - Where is such money as he has going? Drink? Drugs? Gambling? Any of which would have a negative impact on his ability to be a good parent.

This, also why the fuck is he paying zero maintenance for his DC?

PollyPut · 05/12/2022 15:42

@Stressymam have you thought about what happens if the police start chasing him (e.g. post petrol runaway) and the children are in the car? Will he race off? Could he crash with them as passengers?

Too risky. You need to stop them going

Original poster
Stressymam · 05/12/2022 16:03

With regards to where his money is going probably on the hoard of cars and motorbikes and all the gizmos and gadgets that go with them. He doesn't do drugs and as far as I know hardly drinks unless on a night out.

Child maintenance - he opened the case in 2015 and had paid a grand total of 145 quid in that time. No idea why he opened it in the first place because he paid religiously before then every week and would help out with uniforms and other things. Going halves at Christmas etc. CMS are useless anyways. I've given up chasing them.

As for if the police pulling him I think he would pull over however he would be angry afterwards and would probably drive home to reflect that but my daughter can't be 100% sure whether he did pay at pump. She just said he filled up the car and then backed out of the petrol station.

I hope that answers any queries/questions asked.

OP posts: