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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Kier starmer! He hates strivers!

1000 replies

Bucketheadbucketbum · 30/11/2022 21:37

He wants to introduce a policy to put up the cost of school fees 10 to 15%. This is a tax on hard-working parents! We slave away cutting cots everywhere living hand to mouth to try and improve our childrens future . Live in an average house average area 1 shit car no holidays work like a dog to get our kids through. We are easing the burden on the state system by choosing independent schools. We're not sending them to Eton paid by our trust fund! Why does he want to punish strivers! Tax the energy companies! So disappointed. We need a new political party. What's the point in trying to better your future.

OP posts:
VivX · 02/12/2022 00:17

MarshaBradyo · 01/12/2022 23:08

I very clearly said no to tax rebate. Some countries do this but I’m not for it. I use state anyway.

It’s people who keep saying we are subsidising private users that I have an issue with. It’s illogical. It’s the wrong way round. Why do people keep saying it?

The VAT foregone on boarding fees are likely to be comparable with the basic per pupil funding.
(Assuming that boarding fees for primary is around £8k per term and £10k for secondary)

Independent schools with charitable status are exempt from most forms of income tax, including corporation tax.
eg, Brighton School made a £7m surplus in 20/21 (excluding gains on its investments), which was not subject to corporation tax because of their charitable status.
(That tax break works out at over £1k per year per pupil)
Additionally, they receive business rates relief.
These all enable lower fees to be charged.

In 2020/21, Brighton School's bursaries and grants represented only 8.5% of it's fee income.

Brighton School also has two limited company subsidiaries that made gift aid donations to the charity and coincidentally neither company paid any corporation tax.

Additionally, many private schools with charitable status have endowments and investments that are worth millions, that also generate a healthy (tax free) income.

I just don't happen to think that any of this warrants a tax break.

MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2022 00:18

It's never the state system users who laud the private users for "freeing up" places, it's only private users, with their preening self-regard who claim such altruism.

I don’t think I could write more clearly in that post I use state. Strange post.

Again, as a state user that lives in ever decreasing areas for getting in I have no issue with people paying twice and opting out making it easier for us.

JassyRadlett · 02/12/2022 00:21

I’m centring my family. It’s not really a value judgement on how good they are being - they get the education they want, fine by me.

Good for you! I disagree that it's a decision that doesn't have an aggregate (negative) impact on society and social mobility, so I view it differently from solely their family/my family. And if (as Labour have suggested) the money raised from VAT and business rates (and paying business rates really is just levelling the playing field as state schools have to pay them) came with a corresponding funding boost for for state education, it would be a net benefit for society overall and 'levelling up' of those who don't have the means to buy privileges for their children.

Treasury would hate it as they loathe ringfences but a corresponding increase in education spending is a worthy aspiration.

echt · 02/12/2022 00:23

Bucketheadbucketbum · 02/12/2022 00:14

And you know this is ludicrous how exactly? Do you know me? My finances? Again- making assumptions

It's ludicrous on the level that if you can afford private fees, you won't be using a food bank. Now that's hand to mouth. It was you who brought up your financial sacrifices, so yes, others will query it.

It's called AIBU for a reason.

echt · 02/12/2022 00:23

MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2022 00:18

It's never the state system users who laud the private users for "freeing up" places, it's only private users, with their preening self-regard who claim such altruism.

I don’t think I could write more clearly in that post I use state. Strange post.

Again, as a state user that lives in ever decreasing areas for getting in I have no issue with people paying twice and opting out making it easier for us.

I wasn't critiquing you.

MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2022 00:24

Hopefully what you all want to see happens. I doubt it will benefit society that much, bar make the elite system more closed off and the state even more overburdened. Which are both depressing.

As a contrast I preferred Blair’s take with his education line that didn’t pull people down nor create further us and them division.

JassyRadlett · 02/12/2022 00:26

Again, as a state user that lives in ever decreasing areas for getting in I have no issue with people paying twice and opting out making it easier for us.

Again, not 'ever decreasing'. The primary population is already declining, the peak for secondary admissions is pretty much this year and next (yay me for having a peak birth year baby 😬) and after that they're projected to decline pretty rapidly.

The primary school population is projected to decline 6.5% between 2020 and 2026. That's 300,000 school places. The peak year for the secondary population is 2024. After that, ditto.

Even if the mythical 90,000 all headed for the state sector in 2025, it would not be a catastrophe.

echt · 02/12/2022 00:28

Bucketheadbucketbum · 02/12/2022 00:15

Just so keen to paint those who prioritise private schooling as the enemy

You see, there you go again. Who's making assumptions now?

I am not against private schooling. Everyone should be free to pay for private education. However. I think it should be entirely private, with no charitable status or VAT exemption as it is a business. Nor should staff be able to be part of the state teachers' pension scheme.

ganachee · 02/12/2022 00:28

ganachee · 01/12/2022 23:07

Labour want a race to the bottom. They are anti aspiration

OP, the irony is if anyone is stifling aspiration it’s the policies of the Tories these last 12 years. During this time under a coalition govt and then Tory government the richest have massively increased their wealth. The top 1000 richest people have accrued £500 billion since 2009 whilst wages have barely increased since the 2008 global crash. The vast majority of citizens are doing worse on many metrics and young adults as a cohort have been screwed with such issues as out of control house prices

Austerity under Cameron and Osborne decimated public services and caused sluggish growth. They could have used the v low interest rates created by quantitative easing at the time of the financial crash to finance infrastructure and research and development. As other developed countries did at that time. This would have much more likely stimulated better economic growth and benefited many more. Instead only the v rich have seen their wealth soar both after the global crash and then during covid with another round of quantitive easing which saw the biggest year single increase in billionaires during our biggest crisis since 2WW - crazy. Our focus should be on righting this massive transfer of wealth to the super rich and the ever growing inequality between the super rich and the rest of us. Soon there will not be a middle class, it will be the super rich, the just getting by and the destitute.

The BBC did a good 2 episode documentary last January on the increase in wealth of the super rich in society called The Decade the Rich Won. Link below. Tories represent the interests of these super rich and Starmer has not indicated so far that he will do anything significant to address this growing inequality either.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0013xcf

I forgot to add to what I wrote above, that quantitative easing after the global crash in 2008 and then during covid wasn’t necessarily bad. However, govts should acknowledge that it makes the v rich much richer and then having a wealth tax after to redistribute some of their huge profits would be no bad thing.

LexMitior · 02/12/2022 00:30

But that is the point- Labour want kids out of private schools. They don't want an elite system as one poster put it. They would be pleased if that 90,000 transferred in.

Btw I think a lot of people would still scratch around and find the money, even with VAT. Most private school clients are not on their uppers.

VivX · 02/12/2022 00:30

Improving education in state schools and removing tax breaks for independent schools are not mutually exclusive.

Why are some people talking as though only one of these things can occur possibly at the expense of the other.

ganachee · 02/12/2022 00:43

Below is the bulk of an article by journalist Ian Dunt (a centrist on most things) on taxing private schools.

“Even Michael Gove agrees with the opposition. Back when he was briefly a backbencher in 2017, he wrote in The Times that private schools’ tax advantage “allows the wealthiest in this country, indeed the very wealthiest in the globe, to buy a prestige service that secures their children a permanent positional edge in society at an effective 20 per cent discount”.

He was quite right. We have VAT on gingerbread men decorated with chocolate. It should therefore plainly apply to an eye-wateringly expensive educational product whose primary role is to freeze privilege on a hereditary level.

The real problem with Labour’s private school policy is not that it is too harsh. It is that it isn’t harsh enough.

The worst thing about private schools is that they work. Researchers at the UCL Institute of Education found that private school pupils are more likely to study subjects favoured by universities and to perform better at them, leading to better A-level results and disproportionate university placement. Why? Because of money. They have “vastly superior” resources, of which pupils enjoy roughly three times the state school average. Pupil-teacher ratios are around half that of state schools.

Even this level of unearned advantage doesn’t take into account the real reason for sending pupils to private school, which is the purchase of a place within elite social circles. It secures a position in what journalist Robert Verkaik, in his book on the subject, calls the “privilege network”. The pupils make friends for life. They maintain those friendships into their professional careers. They enjoy opportunities which are not available to people outside of them. This helps explain the massive over-representation of the privately educated in the senior judiciary, the upper branches of the civil service, journalism and the diplomatic corps.

And the same applies, of course, to politics. It exists on the right, with David Cameron and Boris Johnson posing together as children and then playing out their psychosocial pathologies over our public life. And it exists on the left. Even the socialist campaign of Jeremy Corbyn, which deserves credit for first putting Labour’s private school policy in place, was beset with the privately educated – from the leader himself to his core allies like Seumas Milne and Jon Lansman.

Morally, the picture is therefore quite simple. This is not a meritocratic society. It cannot be. The children of the successful have a higher chance of themselves becoming successful by virtue of the success of their parents. Private schools allow for privilege from the point of birth to be cemented into place for the entirety of the individual’s life. It is a kind of vestigial hereditary organisation.

But the moral implication is ultimately less important than the national one. This is simply a very bad way to run a country. The successful are not being selected on the basis of their talent or ability. They are being selected on the basis of their parents’ wealth. So we systematically limit the talent pool for the most senior positions in society while arbitrarily promoting those from a narrow social milieu.

It doesn’t have to be this way. Finland has banned charging in basic education for half a century. Its 15-year-olds outperform those in countries with private schools. Its own pupils are remarkably equal, with success rates in school operating regardless of background. As the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) says: “No other country has so little variation in outcomes between schools – and the gap within schools between the top and bottom-achieving students is extraordinarily modest as well.”

There may be other factors in play here. Finland makes sure teachers pass the dinner-party test, by making it a highly paid profession with a large degree of autonomy over their work. It also starts formal education late – after seven years of age – while encouraging play in early child education.

But it tells us one thing, at the very least. You can get rid of private education without dramatic consequences, while improving equality of educational outcomes and broadening the talent pool from which you fill society’s top roles.

Labour’s policy is a good first step, but it shouldn’t be the last one. Private schooling is morally unjustifiable and nationally self-harming. It’s time we dismantled it, one unearned privilege at a time.”

echt · 02/12/2022 00:43

LexMitior · 02/12/2022 00:30

But that is the point- Labour want kids out of private schools. They don't want an elite system as one poster put it. They would be pleased if that 90,000 transferred in.

Btw I think a lot of people would still scratch around and find the money, even with VAT. Most private school clients are not on their uppers.

Does Labour want this? Do you have any evidence for this claim?

The removal of the non-business VAT rating for private schools is a simple matter of equity. The very idea that thousands of current private school users would be decanted into the state system seems unlikely, only the outliers would bail out.

ganachee · 02/12/2022 00:49

ganachee · 02/12/2022 00:43

Below is the bulk of an article by journalist Ian Dunt (a centrist on most things) on taxing private schools.

“Even Michael Gove agrees with the opposition. Back when he was briefly a backbencher in 2017, he wrote in The Times that private schools’ tax advantage “allows the wealthiest in this country, indeed the very wealthiest in the globe, to buy a prestige service that secures their children a permanent positional edge in society at an effective 20 per cent discount”.

He was quite right. We have VAT on gingerbread men decorated with chocolate. It should therefore plainly apply to an eye-wateringly expensive educational product whose primary role is to freeze privilege on a hereditary level.

The real problem with Labour’s private school policy is not that it is too harsh. It is that it isn’t harsh enough.

The worst thing about private schools is that they work. Researchers at the UCL Institute of Education found that private school pupils are more likely to study subjects favoured by universities and to perform better at them, leading to better A-level results and disproportionate university placement. Why? Because of money. They have “vastly superior” resources, of which pupils enjoy roughly three times the state school average. Pupil-teacher ratios are around half that of state schools.

Even this level of unearned advantage doesn’t take into account the real reason for sending pupils to private school, which is the purchase of a place within elite social circles. It secures a position in what journalist Robert Verkaik, in his book on the subject, calls the “privilege network”. The pupils make friends for life. They maintain those friendships into their professional careers. They enjoy opportunities which are not available to people outside of them. This helps explain the massive over-representation of the privately educated in the senior judiciary, the upper branches of the civil service, journalism and the diplomatic corps.

And the same applies, of course, to politics. It exists on the right, with David Cameron and Boris Johnson posing together as children and then playing out their psychosocial pathologies over our public life. And it exists on the left. Even the socialist campaign of Jeremy Corbyn, which deserves credit for first putting Labour’s private school policy in place, was beset with the privately educated – from the leader himself to his core allies like Seumas Milne and Jon Lansman.

Morally, the picture is therefore quite simple. This is not a meritocratic society. It cannot be. The children of the successful have a higher chance of themselves becoming successful by virtue of the success of their parents. Private schools allow for privilege from the point of birth to be cemented into place for the entirety of the individual’s life. It is a kind of vestigial hereditary organisation.

But the moral implication is ultimately less important than the national one. This is simply a very bad way to run a country. The successful are not being selected on the basis of their talent or ability. They are being selected on the basis of their parents’ wealth. So we systematically limit the talent pool for the most senior positions in society while arbitrarily promoting those from a narrow social milieu.

It doesn’t have to be this way. Finland has banned charging in basic education for half a century. Its 15-year-olds outperform those in countries with private schools. Its own pupils are remarkably equal, with success rates in school operating regardless of background. As the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) says: “No other country has so little variation in outcomes between schools – and the gap within schools between the top and bottom-achieving students is extraordinarily modest as well.”

There may be other factors in play here. Finland makes sure teachers pass the dinner-party test, by making it a highly paid profession with a large degree of autonomy over their work. It also starts formal education late – after seven years of age – while encouraging play in early child education.

But it tells us one thing, at the very least. You can get rid of private education without dramatic consequences, while improving equality of educational outcomes and broadening the talent pool from which you fill society’s top roles.

Labour’s policy is a good first step, but it shouldn’t be the last one. Private schooling is morally unjustifiable and nationally self-harming. It’s time we dismantled it, one unearned privilege at a time.”

I might as well copy and paste the first part of the Ian Dunt piece on private education fees and tax.

‘There’s a kind of weariness to the way they wheel out the munitions. The right-wing press have spent the week trying to shoot down Labour’s policy on private schools. The Telegraph says that “Labour’s class war” would “drag the whole country down”. The Daily Mail dedicated two front pages in succession to the issue, complete with some really very dodgy research claiming fee-paying schools somehow save the Treasury money.

Labour’s policy on private schools is in fact very moderate. It is two-fold. First, it wants to remove their charitable status, which would hit them to the tune of a perfectly survivable £144m a year. Second, it wants to apply VAT on private school fees. This is the more substantial element, coming in at probably around £1.5bn. But the overwhelming majority of them would survive just fine, perhaps with some modest tinkering on the teacher-pupil ratio.

Labour won’t be very worried. The private schools policy is very popular. Forty-seven per cent of people think private schools should lose their charitable and tax-exempt status, while just 10 per cent believe they should keep them with no strings-attached.

Those Mail front pages are basically a welcome publicity drive for Labour. You can almost tell by the tone of the coverage. There’s a defeated air to it, which you can sense all over the political right at the moment, compounded by the winter of discontent, the dire polls and the drip-feed of retiring Tory MPs. They go through the motions of attacking Labour’s position in the standard terms, but it feels dutiful rather than passionate.’

ganachee · 02/12/2022 00:53

echt · 02/12/2022 00:43

Does Labour want this? Do you have any evidence for this claim?

The removal of the non-business VAT rating for private schools is a simple matter of equity. The very idea that thousands of current private school users would be decanted into the state system seems unlikely, only the outliers would bail out.

In the article I just posted in the i newspaper the journalist believes most private schools would survive.

“But the overwhelming majority of them would survive just fine, perhaps with some modest tinkering on the teacher-pupil ratio.‘

jgw1 · 02/12/2022 06:25

MarshaBradyo · 01/12/2022 22:54

Levelling down is depressing. Not least because it makes enemies of top tax payers. Blair knew that was a bad idea for a reason. It sows division and it will impact everyone, bar the rich who’ll find another way anyway.

But 12 years of government policy that enriches the rich and taxes the poor more has not sown division?

jgw1 · 02/12/2022 06:43

MarshaBradyo · 01/12/2022 23:55

People go to altruistic but no where do I say this is a factor. I’d leave it as it is. More people will be out of state system and pay twice.

That decline won’t help us as all dc still in oversubscribed years. If all this happens after we have left I still think there are downsides overall but will be glad to have left before it happens - hopefully.

@MarshaBradyo the next logical step in your arguement is rather than paying private school fees for your own children people would pay private schools fees for a child, local to that private school to attend. Do you do that?

jgw1 · 02/12/2022 06:46

JassyRadlett · 02/12/2022 00:26

Again, as a state user that lives in ever decreasing areas for getting in I have no issue with people paying twice and opting out making it easier for us.

Again, not 'ever decreasing'. The primary population is already declining, the peak for secondary admissions is pretty much this year and next (yay me for having a peak birth year baby 😬) and after that they're projected to decline pretty rapidly.

The primary school population is projected to decline 6.5% between 2020 and 2026. That's 300,000 school places. The peak year for the secondary population is 2024. After that, ditto.

Even if the mythical 90,000 all headed for the state sector in 2025, it would not be a catastrophe.

@JassyRadlett please do not bring facts and demographics into a discussion where all we want to do is have a daily hate against Sir Keir Beer and But Jeremy Corbyn.

MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2022 06:49

jgw1 · 02/12/2022 06:43

@MarshaBradyo the next logical step in your arguement is rather than paying private school fees for your own children people would pay private schools fees for a child, local to that private school to attend. Do you do that?

That’s some weird logic. Considering I’m posting from a state school perspective no payment is made for anyone. You keep posting this and apart from it just not being clear it makes no sense.

AhNowTed · 02/12/2022 06:50

ganachee · 02/12/2022 00:43

Below is the bulk of an article by journalist Ian Dunt (a centrist on most things) on taxing private schools.

“Even Michael Gove agrees with the opposition. Back when he was briefly a backbencher in 2017, he wrote in The Times that private schools’ tax advantage “allows the wealthiest in this country, indeed the very wealthiest in the globe, to buy a prestige service that secures their children a permanent positional edge in society at an effective 20 per cent discount”.

He was quite right. We have VAT on gingerbread men decorated with chocolate. It should therefore plainly apply to an eye-wateringly expensive educational product whose primary role is to freeze privilege on a hereditary level.

The real problem with Labour’s private school policy is not that it is too harsh. It is that it isn’t harsh enough.

The worst thing about private schools is that they work. Researchers at the UCL Institute of Education found that private school pupils are more likely to study subjects favoured by universities and to perform better at them, leading to better A-level results and disproportionate university placement. Why? Because of money. They have “vastly superior” resources, of which pupils enjoy roughly three times the state school average. Pupil-teacher ratios are around half that of state schools.

Even this level of unearned advantage doesn’t take into account the real reason for sending pupils to private school, which is the purchase of a place within elite social circles. It secures a position in what journalist Robert Verkaik, in his book on the subject, calls the “privilege network”. The pupils make friends for life. They maintain those friendships into their professional careers. They enjoy opportunities which are not available to people outside of them. This helps explain the massive over-representation of the privately educated in the senior judiciary, the upper branches of the civil service, journalism and the diplomatic corps.

And the same applies, of course, to politics. It exists on the right, with David Cameron and Boris Johnson posing together as children and then playing out their psychosocial pathologies over our public life. And it exists on the left. Even the socialist campaign of Jeremy Corbyn, which deserves credit for first putting Labour’s private school policy in place, was beset with the privately educated – from the leader himself to his core allies like Seumas Milne and Jon Lansman.

Morally, the picture is therefore quite simple. This is not a meritocratic society. It cannot be. The children of the successful have a higher chance of themselves becoming successful by virtue of the success of their parents. Private schools allow for privilege from the point of birth to be cemented into place for the entirety of the individual’s life. It is a kind of vestigial hereditary organisation.

But the moral implication is ultimately less important than the national one. This is simply a very bad way to run a country. The successful are not being selected on the basis of their talent or ability. They are being selected on the basis of their parents’ wealth. So we systematically limit the talent pool for the most senior positions in society while arbitrarily promoting those from a narrow social milieu.

It doesn’t have to be this way. Finland has banned charging in basic education for half a century. Its 15-year-olds outperform those in countries with private schools. Its own pupils are remarkably equal, with success rates in school operating regardless of background. As the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) says: “No other country has so little variation in outcomes between schools – and the gap within schools between the top and bottom-achieving students is extraordinarily modest as well.”

There may be other factors in play here. Finland makes sure teachers pass the dinner-party test, by making it a highly paid profession with a large degree of autonomy over their work. It also starts formal education late – after seven years of age – while encouraging play in early child education.

But it tells us one thing, at the very least. You can get rid of private education without dramatic consequences, while improving equality of educational outcomes and broadening the talent pool from which you fill society’s top roles.

Labour’s policy is a good first step, but it shouldn’t be the last one. Private schooling is morally unjustifiable and nationally self-harming. It’s time we dismantled it, one unearned privilege at a time.”

Great post.

It nails what's really in it for these parents and their children.

Buying a place of lifelong advantage.

Wishihadanalgorithm · 02/12/2022 06:51

I work in an indie which is a business and we pay VAT. Fees are on par with other many charitable status indie schools in the region.

I do know many of the parents at the school would not notice the fee increase. However, probably about 20% would struggle massively and a number of those children would end up back in the state system.

I don’t like the OP’s term “strivers” as it makes parents of state educated children sound unambitious but I guess that was the intention.

I guess indies might not put fees up but they would then stop offering bursaries and doing “charitable acts” such as working with local state schools in a range of ways for free.

jgw1 · 02/12/2022 06:55

I see that Labour's policies on schools is grossly unpopular in Chester where there was a 14% swing to Labour yesterday in the by-election caused by the sitting Labour MP resigning due to allegations of sexual misconduct.
Can anyone remember, was there a swing to the Tories when one of their MPs had to resign and have a by-election due to allegations of sexual misconduct?

MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2022 06:58

I get people are excited about this and I hope you’re right on this one. It reminds me of Brexit, all emotion but low on benefit. But on an emotive level it works for sure.

The tax burden, hefty thing that it is to a large extent carried by top centiles, as I said Blair knew it and managed to get same happy feeling without the take stuff away from them, they are the enemy vibe. All good, people stay and pay tax, all levels feeling better.

Starmer oth lacks this quality, patched together by committee and goes for cheap vote winners. But the warm glow of taking stuff away doesn’t pay and if we get to levelling down then it will be depressing.

Anyway hope you’re all right and it’s the land of milk and honey for U.K. under Starmer.

jgw1 · 02/12/2022 06:59

MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2022 06:49

That’s some weird logic. Considering I’m posting from a state school perspective no payment is made for anyone. You keep posting this and apart from it just not being clear it makes no sense.

Logic is not wierd @MarshaBradyo just because it makes you uncomfortable.

I shall try and explain again.

It has been suggested by posters that state education benefits by not having to educate those children in private schools.

Presumably it does not matter who those children.
So why don't the rich who want to support state education by removing children from state education, just pay for a child to attend private school rather than their child.

Would that not be charitable?

jgw1 · 02/12/2022 07:01

The tax burden, hefty thing that it is to a large extent carried by top centiles,

@MarshaBradyo

Surely you don't actually believe that?

citizen-network.org/library/graphic-poor-pay-the-most-tax.html#:~:text=The%20UK%20tax%20system%20is,the%20Centre%20for%20Welfare%20Reform.

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