To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

Its up to the mother and no one else. No one makes this decision lightly and anyone judging just doesn't fucking understand

I’m so glad we live in a country that recognises the complexity of these heartbreaking issues and agree that improved support to families with disabled children is by far the preference to removing choice.

Downs Syndrome is vanishingly rare in countries with the best support systems. People just don’t want a child with this condition and no amount of support or funding is going to change that. When you only have one or two children, you want them to be as healthy as possible. It’s unfair, but that’s life (so to speak)

It's not the DS lobby behind this case, it's the Christian right. The UK's Downs Syndrome Association for example did not come out in support.

I’m pro choice and agree with you OP

A lot of people need to realise that a TFMR including DS is an absolutely heartbreaking decision and the majority (if not all) of parents loved and wanted their baby!

I would not personally terminate a baby with DS but that’s because I have a CHOICE. Everyone should have a choice.

You shouldn’t ever judge a woman / couple on their choice. It is probably already extremely heartbreaking enough for them.

I have a child with Down syndrome so wind your neck in

Walk into a special school for children with profound and complex needs and see those who are tube fed, react minimally, and sometimes seem in constant discomfort / pain they are a world away from a child with Down’s syndrome. I say keep the same cut off date unless there were extraordinary reasons why the decision was not taken earlier.

I don’t know what I thing. I know a child born at 23.5 weeks who is doing well and I do feel abortion after this time sits uncomfortably with me.

I hugely appreciate the complexities but that’s how I feel

The people behind Heidi Crowter are US anti abortion activists whose ultimate aim is to chip away at abortion rights until we end up like the US. These are not benign people and Heidi is being used.

I am relieved that this ruling has come down as it is, and I hope the Supreme Court will take the same stance. I am the parent of a disabled DC (developed in later life, DC is almost 20). They are living independently, at university studying a STEM subject, they have friends and live life to the full.

But it is highly possible that they will live a shorter and much harder life than a non-disabled person. They will have to jump through the hoops of a callous Tory system that aims to penalise people who need support. Their life will be tougher.

That is the reality of life for a disabled person. I love my DC, the world is a better place with them in it, but every pregnant woman who receives bad news should be allowed to choose what they want to do.

Are you going to go and deal with any other children who now from sheer necessity have to play second fiddle throughout their childhood?

As stated upthread, I am in full support of this appeal outcome.

I understand the argument you are trying to make and assume it comes from a good place but as the sister of a person with Downs I really don't appreciate being written about in such a glib, two-dimensional way.

I am a happy, successful, thriving adult with a meaningful, joyful relationship with my equally thriving, wonderful sibling. They're thriving in a different way to me and they're not 'high functioning', granted, but my parents value us both equally and neither plays second fiddle to the other.

This thread risks tipping from a defense of a woman's right to choose into eugenics territory, please can I urge a bit compassion (again!).

Taxes and compassion are enough to meet the emotional/psychological needs of the parents of children with such severe medical conditions are they?

So glad at the verdict and that she has been unsuccessful again.

@mummylondon16 I absolutely don't buy the abortion as a form of contraception line. Especially not in repeated cases.

Hmm, I think I'll go without a condom now, then have either a painful few days at home cramping and bleeding, or even better a surgical procedure under local anaesthetic.

Equally valid is the perspective of a lady who lives near me who has a 15 year old son with Downs Syndrome. He is incontinent, has severe learning difficulties and is occasionally violent. She is desperately, desperately worried about what the future holds for him and who will look after him when she’s no longer here or able to as he won’t be able to lead an independent life.

I wonder where the dad is in all this? I know a lot stay, but a lot leave too.

If only the forced birthers would concentrate on the children, especially those with disabilities and with parents who are at the ends of their tethers the world might be a kinder place. But nope, people are left to cope with very few resources.

24 wks isn't late.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with full term abortion if there is a life-limiting condition etc. with the foetus and the mother wishes to termintate.

That’s okay - babies aren’t murdered because of disability! Foetuses are aborted. Completely different.

Also don’t call yourself “pro choice” in any capacity. You’re not.

I chose not to. so wind your own neck in.

It’s not a competition though, and downplaying the fact that for many with Down’s syndrome they will also have other comorbid problems and will often need life long care doesn’t help anyone.

late term abortions are exceptionally rare and are only done with very good reasoning.

If these people really wanted to reduce the rate of abortions for people with disability, they would be focusing their attention on creating a better support system - funding, daycare, respite care, better schooling, better assisted living, medical research etc. Whether through government or private funding.

I'd bet a whole lot of people would be more likely to see through a pregnancy with Downs or another condition if they knew it wouldn't be a lonely, hard, financially ruinous struggle to raise the child.

But this is an issue that's being used as a thin end of the wedge for people who want to ban abortion altogether.

My niece has DS plus severe learning difficulties, autism and heart defects. She has had three operations already and will need more. She is non-verbal, massive meltdowns and prone to violence. Her older sister cannot live with her anymore as she was the main target when DN2 lashed out so DN1 lives with her dad and DN2 with her mum.

Her needs are profound, complex, she is in constant pain and is a child with DS.

My SIL had the 12 week tests and was the 1 in 2300.

24 weeks is too late. Babies should not be murdered because of disability in my opinion they should be supported by the state via taxes and compassion.

Taxes and compassion would have done nothing to improve my DS's life. Interesting that you would rather my child had spent his life suffering though, that's compassion for you right there!

This is really interesting. Pre pregnancy, I would have said that I would terminate that pregnancy. When I was told that my baby was "in all likelihood incompatible with life", all I knew was that I had to have him. I had to meet him, even if I could only hold him after he had already died. There was not a thought in my head of abortion. As my pregnancy progressed, living looked more likely but then there were the thoughts around dealing with disability etc. In the end, I had a proper little miracle baby and am the luckiest mum in the world.

I would have failed this test though, despite the fact that I did everything I could for my son. I basically gave up my life for years to prioritise him and meet his needs. Totally willingly and it absolutely paid off. I would do it again in a heartbeat. But @clpsmum would have me written off altogether as a parent.

None of us know what we will do, it what we are capable of until the time comes. Sometimes going ahead is the selfish thing. I think it was for me. I couldn't cope with the pain of losing my baby, so I gambled. It worked, but it might not have. We could have a very different story.

Sometimes letting go is a parent pouring their love into that child, releasing them from a painful existence and protecting their much wanted baby to the best if their ability. Protecting existing children from a total nightmare.

The only people I judge in these circumstances are the nasty people trying to interject their beliefs into situations they are clearly incapable of understanding.

I am relieved too, although situations like that also make me sad. If I'd known about one of my children's issues at a late scan, I don't think I'd have had him and I really can't imagine that. But leaving it as the family's choice is the right thing.

late term abortions are exceptionally rare and are only done with very good reasoning.

This^

Nobody carrying a "perfect" baby will abort it at 39wks!

Do you really think women who choose to abort a foetus in the later stages of pregnancy do it for shits and giggles?

It's the dating scan at 12 weeks. The 20 week scan is where most abnormalities etc are likely to be picked up. That's why the 20 week scan is called the 'anomaly scan'.

www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/your-pregnancy-care/12-week-scan/
www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/your-pregnancy-care/20-week-scan/