To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

It's not ableist to think bringing a disabled child into the world is selfish and irresponsible

Yes, yes it is. Ableist is exactly what it is. Take your quest for racial purity and perfection elsewhere.

Possibly. I think a lot of families are so used to views like Itsshelia’s that they feel they have to redress the balance because otherwise it’s just people writing off our children and diminishing their value.

There’s stuff about raising a child with a disability that’s really hard (often admin related!) But for me the absolute joy, laughter and love of it outweighs all that. People imagine my life and only see the difficult bits. I prefer to focus on the many, many positives because that’s my day to day reality. Society focusses on the negatives.

Still pro choice though

Not much to add but I am 100% with you OP.

I’d be interested to see to what extent those who are strongly anti abortion or want to restrict access to abortion significantly would be in favour of higher taxes to support more state funding for carers and more benefits for single parents, childcare etc. Among people I know in real life who are in favour of restricting access to abortion there is no one who is strongly in favour of directing more public spending to these areas and most are actively against it. I find it bizzare how for these people all children matter so much until they are born and then don’t matter at all. I’m pleased the limit hasn’t changed. I’d like to see much better funding for children (& adults) with disabilities to help allow them a better chance to gain a degree of independence and to contribute to society. Some people just need some adaptations and a bit of support. Some people will need lifelong care and that should be available too.
If you give parents the reassurance their child will have support throughout their life (even after their parents are gone) you might find more of them want to go ahead with pregnancy even where their child will have significant needs. Equally some won’t feel like they can handle it even with more help and I see no benefit in forcing them to go ahead with the pregnancy regardless. It just seems cruel to everyone involved.

@whatkatydid2013 I am very pro-tax, pro publicly funded initiatives and support for the disabled community. Beyond that I think our homes, cities and systems should all be designed for inclusivity, not just for the abled as they are now. I would back massive changes in those areas - from quiet hour at supermarkets for SPD individuals to elevators, ramps, wide doorways & toilet spaces for wheelchair users, to flexible work environments for people with neurodivergence, chronic fatigue and mental illnesses. Our abled society is just plain wrong in my view, it excludes and enforces misery on so many people and is a hierarchy that long needs abolishing. My sister says there's a difference between being welcoming and being truly inclusive - and we have a long long way to go on many fronts (physical disabilities and illness, mental illness, trauma, neurodivergence) to be anything more than a big fake smile and a pat on the back for trying.

As far as selfishness goes, bringing any child into the world is inherently selfish. You have a child because you want them, because they will give you the life you want, because they will make you feel fulfilled etc. The idea of an unselfish birth (ie abled) is a myth and massively harmful to anyone born 'not perfect'.

Additionally, any child born is brought into a world where they will suffer and die. Life itself is a terminal condition. We hope and believe it's worth it, but there is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that the balance of suffering versus enjoyment in your child's life will tip the way you want it to. The babies of today - abled as well as disabled - are pretty much screwed, born into a world basically on fire, where we know they will be adults in a world of conflict, scarcer resources, and increasingly devastating natural disasters. We gamble on it being worth it because we want to - again, the idea of an unselfish birth or a suffering-free life (ie abled) is a myth and again causes huge harm to the disabled community.

Yanbu. Very happy with the news.

I already had a child with disabilities when I fell pregnant with my 2nd child
I wanted to know for certain so had an amnio with both of my subsequent pregnancies. My sister had an abortion at 21weeks due to the baby having DS .

DS is a spectrum and can be life limiting. Not all people with DS will be as able as the young lady who brought the case.

I terminated last month for Downs, having not thought that I would. I found out very early because I had chosen to pay privately for a NIPT at ten weeks and I made my decision based on that, without waiting for the amniocentesis. Even then I was 12 weeks and that was because I had gone privately.
If I had gone through all the NHS tests and waited for amnio results, I would have been at least 18 weeks.

My decision was made because of the uncertainty- Downs is a spectrum and I had no way of knowing how severe it would be. The risk of early onset dementia terrified me and I didn’t want that for my daughter. The impact on our other children. I was devastated. I completely appreciate that many children with Downs live full and happy lives, but it would have been a massive gamble.

I think aborting a child with down syndrome because you don't want your other children burdened with caring for their sibling when the parent dies is another perfectly valid reason for abortion.

Iusedtobedontcall

It is. Wanting an abortion is a valid reason for an abortion. Presenting your decision as being made in the best interests of the fetus is a little disingenuous though.

I did genuinely consider the risk of childhood leukaemia and early onset dementia when I made my decision. I of course considered the impact on our lives and the impact on siblings too. I think any reason is valid and however a woman wants to frame that decision is perfectly valid too. It’s not a choice anyone wants to be faced with.

What was your baby's diagnosis @Untitledsquatboulder ? I hope you don't mind my asking.

Iusedtobedontcall Sending love to you 💐

Craniosynostosis @SnotRag22

Oh and a kidney malformation.

@Untitledsquatboulder I only know a couple of children who have had craniosynostosis but they was diagnosed post birth. Mine both had cranio diagnosed in the womb, but it was a side effect of their spina bifida.

My point being, it isn't disingenuous to not want your baby to suffer. That is what drives the majority of late term TFMRs. It's being told the details of the diagnosis, being told the outcomes for each of the procedures and the likelihood of death at each stage. The prognosis and outcomes. The knock on effect. It's a complex and individual decision and incredibly traumatic.

@SnotRag22 I don't disagree with you at all. My point is that when you start characterising people who choose not to terminate for disability as "selfish and irresponsible" or lump all disabilities into a group marked "burden" or claim that all fetuses with the wrong number of chromosomes need to be relieved of their
lives as a kindness to prevent their suffering then that has real world consequences for the way society views and treats disabled children and adults.

Iusedtobedontcall

💐

In which xas, we are absolutely on the same page. And that's not something I'd ever advocate for.

No one has an abortion at 24 weeks because they've suddenly realized that they don't want a baby! It's either because the mother's life is in danger (and even then, by that stage you don't have an abortion; you deliver prematurely) or because the baby has a severe or fatal abnormality.

Well said

I think there’s a lot in this. One consequence of this is the degree to which people find it hard to believe that life with a disabled child can be fulfilling and joyful, even with challenges. You see it a lot: “oh, it must be because your child is high functioning” or “it must be because you have an anti-choice agenda” or indeed “not all people with DS are like Heidi”. I once saw someone claim it was because parents of kids with DS were bitter and wanted others to suffer too (I can’t remember if that was this thread or a previous one). Whereas if someone talks about a difficult or challenging experience it’s immediately accepted as not just fact (and I’m not disputing the lived experience of those individuals) but representative of all experiences. There’s also ableism embedded in all of that - high functioning or close to normal is the best you can hope for and advocacy or even just talking about your experience must have an ulterior motive.

There’s a lot of confirmation bias going on

@Demigo I agree that ableism needs to be tackled hard, and that includes a complete redesign of the world we live in. One of my DC is disabled - physical health issues requiring a wheelchair, autism and mental ill health, so the full whammy. This happened in their teens, so not the same situation, but it does really open your eyes to all the ways in which this world is ableist.

However, none of that is a good reason to deny women the choice of whether or not they want to knowingly take that on. No matter what, chipping away at abortion rights is a dangerous path. And ultimately the people behind Heidi Crowter, and probably Heidi herself, are about doing just that and should be stopped. You can advocate against ableism without taking away a woman's right to choose.

And arguably, THAT is a consequence of the most visible advocacy groups only presenting the positive stories. Understandably there is a desire to challenge ableism, but you cannot reasonably do so by denying women options, or by pretending negative experiences don’t exist.