To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

The people telling this woman that people want her and her child dead aren't even the majority of Evangelicals, according to research by the Evangelical Alliance - more respondents in this study, for example, disagree with the viewpoint that there are no circumstances that a termination can be justified -

www.eauk.org/church/resources/snapshot/upload/21st-Century-Evangelicals-Data-Report.pdf

So your friends were in abusive relationships? Well it's very gracious of you not to blame them. 🙄

In that case Maire-Lee Wilson needs to join Heidi Crowter on the "Shutting the Fuck Up" bench.

I don’t feel abortion should be used as contraception.

Its not your business why abortion is needed. Its not your uterus. Your feelings are irrelevant if its not inside your body.

Maire doesn’t seem to really have grasped the issue beyond ‘OMG IT MEANS THEY THINK KIDS LIKE MY SON SHOULDNT EXIST’. She doesn’t seem to realise other people don’t exist to validate her child. A very articulate lady from BPAS debated her on Womans Hour and absolutely showed her up.

And again, Maire didn’t actively choose to continue a DS pregnancy from the outset - I think she found out only a week or two before her son was born, which puts things in a different light.

I don't think anyone should shut the fuck up. Debate should not be stifled.

I'm not sure I'm even sorry that they brought this case because thanks to their efforts it has now been strongly restated in court that personhood and human rights begin at birth and not before, and that just because a law upsets you, that doesn't mean it interferes with your human rights.

@LangClegsInSpace I actually agree that the case has clarified the law and has spectacularly backfired - but we do need to remain very wary of the people behind it and their intentions, I think we can all agree on that.

I do understand what you’re saying @LangClegsInSpace but I’ve never felt that this is something that can be fairly debated in the public sphere. Because it looks… well, monstrous, debating termination with a backdrop of lovely babies and toddlers with DS and their doting parents. I feel like no TV presenter would want to rigorously challenge Heidi because doing so to a lady with learning difficulties would look distasteful. And challenging the parents who are clearly very emotional about their children (and again; I can understand why) looks almost as bad. And absolutely nobody is going to point out the disconnect between the fact they want to remove other women’s choices, when most of them didn’t actively make that choice themselves but slipped through the screening net.

I think 24 weeks is reasonable. You can have an amniocentesis from around 15 weeks. At your 20 week scan if referred due to risks that gives 4 weeks for results and to decide if you wish to proceed. Alternatively maybe a cut of at 30 weeks. I feel it is wrong that a child can be aborted up to the day they are born. Think about it this way...if you knew the child had this condition and accepted that fact but carried on the pregnancy until the day before your due date and decide to terminate then no it should not be allowed unless your life is at risk by giving birth. You have the option of placing the child for adoption. If you only just found out their is a conditional say 32 weeks the mother should have the option if agreed by medical staff. Personally after 36 weeks when the baby is no longer premature but preterm I feel it should be a hard no.

There's been a thread going this week where a woman has only been told they think there could be a potentially very serious problem at 28 weeks and hasn't had the option of amnio.

How does her reality fit in with your suggestion that she's had plenty of time?

Exactly 🤦‍♀️ These people don’t live in the real world. We don’t exactly have an efficient NHS right now.

The BPAS lady pointed out that a sharp cut off might have the reverse effect, causing more terminations because parents feel pressured to make their mind up before the deadline rather than watch/wait and gather information.

And again, Maire didn’t actively choose to continue a DS pregnancy from the outset - I think she found out only a week or two before her son was born, which puts things in a different light.

I think it’s a lot of unconscious crab mentality where parents of other disabled children think “well I have to suffer so you should too!”

I don’t think they’re all ‘suffering’ by any stretch of the imagination, I think it’s that they feel if more kids were born with DS then their child will feel less unusual. The issue there is that there won’t be additional funding to match that, so it’s in everyone’s interests that disabled children are born to parents who 100% want them and can provide the support they need to show society the best aspects of life with disability.

Yeah I’m sure it’s so easy for them. That’s my opinion that it’s crap mentality.

*crab

Yes, they know exactly what they are doing.

This is why HC's twitter account gets very little negative engagement. There is no way of engaging critically without looking and feeling like an arsehole.

It's a deliberate, tried and tested tactic.

www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/down-syndrome-abortion-bans-gain-traction-after-court-ruling

The intention is to stifle debate. We can't let that happen because they are in court, trying to change the law. They are lobbying MPs trying to change the law.

UK abortion law is a lot safer than US law before RvW was overturned, but it's not invulnerable. These people are a real threat.

What these campaigners don’t seem to grasp is if a woman is forced to have a disabled child they don’t want not only will she be miserable (I know they don’t care about this) but the child themselves will likely have a miserable life. Heidi was a wanted child and probably had a good childhood, that won’t be the case for children whose parents resent them and wish they didn’t have them.

Im starting to get angry with posters who haven't read the thread and appear to live in a "oh it's not nice that, it shouldn't be allowed" world. I should probably step away.

If a child is so severely disabled that you get to 36w pregnant and have to TFMR, then that child isn't going to survive outside the womb. They're not going to live. It's not about whether they're going to be prem or not, or whether someone might adopt them, it's about how badly their tiny bodies have deteriorated so that they wouldn't survive actually being born. These are loved, wanted, adored, named children who will be deeply grieved for.

Just listened, from 24.30
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000p78p

Well look at that, haven't you just solved the whole issue, well done you 🙄

My daughter had SWAN, it CANNOT be tested for. It wasn't apparent on her scans at all. It wouldn't have been apparent until after 30ish weeks in pregnancies they were looking out for it on either.

Her bones were so brittle they broke as I birthed her, and she suffered every day of her short life, then she died.

If you could have seen what my precious daughter went through in her tiny life and think "nope, another child must suffer that because I am so stupid I can't think beyond my own experiences, and im also so insensitive I can't even be arsed reading the thread of people giving their experiences" then your pretty fucking evil actually.

Must be nice to live in your world of "No this is wrong because I said so" and never have to look beyond your own very limited experience.

That’s the one. Maire just seems to rely on a few mantras and can’t engage with the complex arguments put to her. I’m baffled when she says ‘I don’t know how I’m going to explain this to my son when he’s older’ errrrr so don’t tell him? He won’t be needing an abortion himself so why would she? I think she thinks she’s a lot cleverer than she is.

Yeah I got that impression. She had no retort other than to repeat what she said earlier. Flustered & defensive in the face of a very articulate reasoned position.

Is it?

Either she hasn't the capacity to understand and we should all 'be nice' because of that..

Or, she has the capacity to understand in which case I think that is a fair, if blunt, comment.

Can't have it both ways!