To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

I was appalled at Mencap's intervention in this case.

www.mencap.org.uk/crowter-case-statement

If your DS can work, then I am not talking about him. My two DC are disabled and will be able to work, although my DD who is more affected will have a narrower range of jobs she can do.

I am talking about teenagers and adults who need continual care. Having to physically care for an adult who may have behavioural problems who acts like a baby or a toddler is tough. Think of toddler tantrums and now imagine a 35 year old man behaving similarly. I have met many parents really struggling like the mother with a 19 year old who often injured her and hit out when he was having meltdowns. She was talking about putting him into care as she knew she was going to end up seriously injured.

I have thought for a long time that the talk of disability nowadays is always at the less complex end, so the children and adults with complex disabilities are pretty forgotten about by most people.

@LangClegsInSpace well, that puts them firmly on my list of 'charities I will never donate to'.

Women do, but only if the baby is dying and will kill the mother.

Mencap has had a terrible reputation as an employer for decades. They are a charity I would never support anyway.

Oh wow, I hadn't clocked that, that's disappointing. I mentioned upthread that the DSA hadn't come out in support, is that correct?

Sorry, that was in response to @LangClegsInSpace

I find aborting up to full term is disgusting!

I find being demanding that a newborn dies a slow painful death is more disgusting and question the mindset of those who would rather that than to allow the baby to go peacefully...but hey you do you.

I also find a mother being forced to die like that woman in N Ireland, totally disgusting.

As far as I know, yes, that's correct.

There is a recently formed group called the National Down’s Syndrome Policy Group which comprises many of the same characters behind this case. They are also behind the new, weirdly empty Down Syndrome Act, brought in through Liam Fox's private member's bill.

I know DSA were not consulted on that bill.

NDSPG are also behind the recently resurrected APPG on Down Syndrome, chaired by rabid ant-choice SNP MP Lisa Cameron.

This is a good article on the links:

makingrightsmakesense.wordpress.com/2022/01/21/a-cunning-fox/

More on Mencap:

makingrightsmakesense.wordpress.com/2022/03/13/bend-sinister/

Think about the irony of a charity called Mencap – its name an amalgam of Mentally Handicapped – criticising the use of ‘handicap’ in a 55-year-old piece of legislation, given all the opportunities it has had to rebrand itself.

That's a bit harsh, given that she herself has Down's syndrome.

I can see both sides, to be honest, as I have friends with children with DS who feel strongly about this. As in what right does anyone have to decide that life with DS isn't worth living? It's not ALL about the parents or previous siblings but also about the rights of the child - and the difficulty here is that at 24 weeks we're talking about a child, not an embryo. Please don't think I'm judging anyone for making difficult decisions though, I'm not.

Also, nobody should be under any illusions about what "abortion" at this stage means. It's not a clean, easy procedure. The woman actually has to give birth. Which is a lot more difficult as the baby has been euthanised first, so can't actively take part (which a live baby does, even at 24 weeks). My sister had to do this at 14 weeks due to non viable malformations, and this was by far her most painful birth (she's had three healthy children since).

@WHalesong under UK law, the child doesn't have rights until it's born. So it absolutely is all about the woman and her wider family. The summary of the judgement is very clear that the law as it stands is not a judgement on the worth or otherwise of living people with DS. Heidi Crowter's 'feelz' should not be allowed to dictate law.

And that is aside from the dangerous ulterior motives of the people behind Heidi, who are all about chipping away at abortion rights.

I can see both sides, to be honest, as I have friends with children with DS who feel strongly about this. As in what right does anyone have to decide that life with DS isn't worth living?

So why cant your friends realise they made the choice to continue their pregnancy and others should be allowed to do the same? Its not saying a life with DS isn't worth living, but DS is a spectrum. A disabled child is more difficult to look after. Its about the parents lives and if they want to bring a DS child into the world. They have the right to say no. I would.

Clearly you've never had a pregnancy where the baby has severe severe problems

When I was 21 I had a scan at 13 weeks , everything was fine. I had a scan at 21 weeks and my babies kidneys hadnt grown, his lungs hadnt grown and his bladder was on the verge of rupturing because his kidneys and lungs hadnt grown.

I went to so many specialists and consultants to see If there was anything they could do to save my baby. There was not. Nobody could help him

I had an abortion at nearly 25 weeks. I spent a month trying to find someone who could help him,

He was going to die in the womb. Literally explode inside me. Do you think at 21 I wanted to abort my first baby?

And you know that late it's not an abortion? It's an induced labour. You have to give birth to your baby.

Think its disgraceful all you want. I hope nothing like that ever happens to you or someone you love because I have never ever gotten over it and I think about my little boy every single day

My son has severe SEN (not ds). His condition is very rare and not screened for. Life is unbelievably hard with an 19 year old non verbal Incontinant toddler.
when I found out about his condition (50% chance of a boy with his condition 50% chance of a girl carrier) I went and demanded to be sterilised. The numbers where too scary for an unscreened condition. If I hadn’t been sterilised I would have aborted any accidental pregnancies. I couldn’t have another child like ds
I love my son and wouldn’t be without him but no one has the right to force my life on anyone so not to hurt the feelings of anyone with the condition. I spend half my life worrying about his future. Adult social care is ridiculous and childrens services are worse.

as early as possible, as late as nescesary

These people would be the first to tell non-Americans to keep their nose out of America's business, so they can sod off and keep their beaks out of our business.

I saw stats for abortions for 2020. 209,000 approx abortions, of which there were only 200 approx that took place beyond 24 weeks. All for serious issues. Where I saw Downs mentioned as an issue, it was always in conjunction with other, serious issues, and those babies would have had very little quality of life, if they survived the birth.

Heidi's campaign seems to have promoted the idea that women were just happily skipping off to abort without a thought. Yet I would be willing to bet my next year's salary that each and every abortion taking place past 24 weeks only took place after a lot of heartbreaking discussion between the family, doctors and counsellors. Not a single one of those women will have made that decision lightly.

Heidi's backers can sod off, permanently.

I'm so very sorry for what you went through @DearyMe571

It is obvious that you wanted only the best for your baby. Please try not to let the ignorant, cruel comments get to you xxx

@LouiseBelchersPinkBunnyEars , @DearyMe571 and everyone else who has so bravely told their heartbreaking stories, please ignore the forced birthers on this thread, who clearly haven’t got a clue and are incapable of seeing things from anyone else’s point of view. 💐

Isn't that giving birth slightly early to a baby who is sadly going to die? I wouldn't call it an abortion.

If a baby is born early to save the life of the mother, he or she has a good chance of survival.

(if there is nothing wrong with the baby)

No, she needs to sit down and shut up like the horror crows who are behind her pushing this agenda.

Nobody is saying her life isn't worth living. Just like they're not saying it about the children born with DS. What they are saying is that it has to be a woman's choice as to whether they carry their pregnancy to term knowing that they are signing their lives over to a disabled baby, then child, then adult. Knowing that their child will perish before they will. Disability does affect the entire family. It disproportionately affects the mother.

Heidi Crowther wouldn't have been the one watching my babies die from sepsis after they had an infection. She wouldn't have been the one watching as they suffered in pain and faded away after having their spine operated on at 48 hours old. Or their bowel reconstructed at birth. She wouldn't have been the one waiting every day for them to die, likely before their first birthday, five years at the absolute out. Heidi Crowther wouldn't have been the one separated from her other children because of cross contamination fears. Could you watch your newborn die? What about your one year old? Your five year old? Could you let it happen? Could you watch them writhe in pain, not understanding why? Could you plan their funeral? Heidi Crowther needs to sit the fuck down.

@SnotRag22 I have no words for how much I admire you.

Total female bodily autonomy … no iffs and buts

Same. Your story is heartbreaking and you're clearly a very loving and strong mother.