To want my autistic DC to start reception in mainstream?

[Ambern7]

DC gets on well at mainstream nursery but is developmentally behind peers. I am not happy with the special needs provisions in our area so have opted for mainstream with good support in place through EHCP, which we fought hard for.
However, professionals involved keep asking me if we are sure we don’t want to go with the special provisions, they have listed lots of things they think are great about the school, however I don’t think the facilities will benefit my DC personally.
These unwanted opinions have got me second guessing something I was so sure of previously. I just don’t see the problem of starting off in mainstream and seeing how it goes, AIBU?

If 1:1 is specified in EHCP then definitely assume this will take place or take further action. EHCP is a legal document so if it states 1:1 then that needs to happen regardless of other children.

Agree with you. It's the state of many schools. There is no other option. People aren't queuing up to become a TA. Especially a 1:1. There should be more options.

@MilkToastHoney @Thatsnotmycar @SEND2022 and @Ambern7 are clearly all confident, articulate, literate people with good English language skills and good understanding either of legal matters, or financially well off enough to employ solicitors, or have the cognition skills and time to fight for these things.

Good. I wish more people did.

However that is not the reality for the vast majority of parents of dc with significant SEND. I think most people on this thread are pointing out what the reality is for the overwhelming majority of dc in schools with EHCPs.
I wish it weren't.
I think it is disgraceful and that we, as "society" should hang our collective heads in shame at having allowed public services to get to this state over many many decades, but what people are saying here is, this is the reality for the vast majority of families.

I came on to say this. We have had this conversation in the school I work at recently. Once in a mainstream school it’s very hard to get a place at a later date in a specialist school as all places are quickly filled. Of course, if you’re looking for a place at that time it’s mainly because mainstream isn’t working for your child.
I really would listen to the professionals, especially as you have worked so hard for a EHCP, you know yourself they don’t give those out lightly.
What have the teachers and SENCO said at the mainstream school you’re looking at?

Should children be spending early years in SS if MS is appropriate at that stage?

It’s so tricky, isn’t it? You’ve had lots of good advice on here and the benefit of people sharing their experiences.
I’’ve worked in schools for a few years now and have seen many children with ASD in mainstream. Some successfully, some not so. The benefit you have is an early EHCP which stipulates therapies and hours required. I would offer a word of caution here. The LSAs who support 1:1 in mainstream are not always trained and/or experienced. I am in no way bagging out LSAs. The ones I have known do their very best for the children they work with. However, special schools are far more likely to have trained, experienced and well supported TAs/LSAs who will understand the needs of your child.
It sounds as though you will be a strong advocate for your daughter no matter where she is placed.

This is reasonably true. I can't afford solicitors or legal advice but I am capable enough to have done the Ipsea legal training and to navigate it the law. If I found out my child's 1-1 was being used for another child as a PP said, I know how to address that and hold the LA to account.

I also run a group to help ensure other parents have access to the same knowledge but the parents being able to understand the system is probably one of the biggest factors.

If 1:1 is specified in EHCP then definitely assume this will take place or take further action. EHCP is a legal document so if it states 1:1 then that needs to happen regardless of other children.

There should never be an assumption it will take place. I’d advise all parents to expect there to be issues with it and to monitor it closely.

It is a legal document, however if a school has 6 children that have that stating they should have 1:1 there is little they can do if they only have 4 members if staff.

Its not just about schools using one child’s staff member elsewhere, it’s about a massive shortage in staff.

However, special schools are far more likely to have trained, experienced and well supported TAs/LSAs who will understand the needs of your child.

This is also a very very good point.

My DDs school us, like most, struggling to keep full staff numbers. However, what they do have us lots of very experienced staff who have specifically chosen to work in a specialist setting and who have excellent support around them.

One if the schools I used to work in is currently so short handed one of the office staff is temporarily (they hope) doing 1:1 just to give an actual body.

I think it's also worth remembering that even though the EHCP might specify 1:1, it most likely won't be all day, every day. The money the school receive will be a lot less than the cost of employing a TA for that role. Which is why you end up with office staff filling in, or very young, inexperienced staff.

I haven't caught up on the full thread so please ignore me if I'm repeating info. I consider myself to be very capable but I would say that sometimes it's not even an issue of whether you're able to competently challenge and fight. Sometimes it's as simple as not being aware that resources which were supposed to be set aside are being shared.

At our first primary school, DS had a dedicated 1:1 who was supposed to be with him all the time. And that was certainly the impression that I had in his home-school diary, scheduled visits etc. And then once I popped in unexpectedly and was waiting in by the office - glass doors which gave a view to the hall and the corridor. His 1:1 was wandering around making porridge for a class activity and doing general prep. No sign of DS.

Obviously I questioned what was going on. The school had assembly - a situation that DS found really, really hard. The explanation was given that if DS became distressed, the 1:1 would go and get him. But his EHCP specifically said he needed someone sat NEXT to him to provide reassurance and to spot early signs of distress.

This is a very specific example - can you tell I am still furious 6 years later haha!! But it's a point - if your child isn't able to recount what's going on in school accurately then without eyes in the classroom there is just no way of knowing if those dedicated resources are being used appropriately or shared around. As an ex-school governor (SEN Governor) I'm all too aware of the dire financial situation many schools find themselves in. I really don't think that children with an EHCP in mainstream are getting exactly what their parents think.....I carried out lots of SEN inspections and almost without fail, every single time, the 1:1 assigned to various children would end up supporting other kids in the classroom too. The only exceptions were those children who had been physically moved to another area like a quiet zone.

I did send my dd to mainstream. She transferred to a specialist school for asd in year 3.

I would go for specialist if you can. If the one you want starts at 7 then fine but be wary. MY honest opinion is
If your child does not really speak then mainstream is not for them.
They will be unable to form friendships and will miss out on most of the learning.
My dd had some words and short phrases but she could not have a conversation and could not go beyond very simple instructions like 'find the book', write your name'. I would say the school managed her well in reception with a very skilled TA who was with her all day long. In Year 1 and Year 2, she was essentially being educated by her 1:1 who couldn't sustain this. My dd's behaviour deteriorated and she simply wasn't happy. The TA left and we were in a dire situation. The difference in her when she moved to the specialist school was phenomenal.

This is great advice

I think another point that should be considered is that your child going to school should not be a source of conflict and stress for you or your child. IF you have to be in daily contact with the school or you are constantly needing to complain or check things then it probably just isn't working. Mainstream schools are staffed and set up to educate the many. They do their best with children who have special needs but more and more they are being asked to provide a specialist education. A child with high level needs that needs constant supervision and support needs a specialist education in a setting that is able to provide this and for all their other needs. Trying to use the law to get this is in my experience a waste of time. Yes, you might win some of the arguments and force the school to do XYZ but ultimately, usually the child moves on somewhere as it simply is unsuitable.

I have no idea what your dc is like so am just going to share my experience. There are three autistic children in the mainstream reception class I work in. They each have a one to one.
They do not integrate with the class due to their needs; one gets upset due to the noise and has several meltdowns daily. Another leaves the classroom frequently and just wanders the school with his one to one. The other just listlessly walks around the class playing with various toys. All three are in nappies and parents need to come and change a soiled nappy. So they can never go far from the school.

The parents ask how their dc got on with the other children today and don’t understand that they don’t mix with them at all. The parents seem to think that by being in mainstream their dc will eventually ‘grow out of it’. I’m not saying this is a normal response but it is the case here. The other children have learned that the dc do not respond to them if they try to play and although they are kind to them they are largely ignored.

The dc have untrained one to ones with little to no experience. They are amazing people who try to cater to their needs but there are very limited resources. The dc have little enjoyable experiences during the day and it seems pointless them being there. The class teacher has 27 other children. Other schools may be completely different but this is my experience. Of course, your dc may also have less severe needs.

If it were my dc I would be fighting tooth and nail for a place in a specialist provision with trained staff and appropriate resources.

I have two children with autism. One struggled somewhat but got through mainstream with a 1:1 and understanding teachers.

The other really needed specialist school provision. They started in reception and after many difficult years dropped out of school altogether. We are still playing catch up in specialist provision and will be until they are 25 with their EHCP.

I'd say if professionals are offering it now, and it's hard to get, take it and don't look back.

Don't put your child through the horrors of mainstream for autistic children that can't cope.

As a parent you want them to have a 'normal' school experience and you can sometimes miss what the child actually needs.

Please listen to the professionals. It's very hard to get a diagnosis before 4 let alone also have an EHCP in place so your ds must have shown significant delays and/or difficulties, enough that he won't be suitable for mainstream school.

My dd did attend mainstream school with 1:2 ta which was ok at first but a disaster from 7 and we couldn't get a transfer to any other school

There obviously is another option. The school has a TA supporting a child without an EHCP while a child with an EHCP goes without support they are legally entitled to. If the provision is specified and quantified the school are acting unlawfully and also leaving themselves open to a disability discrimination claim.

I agree. DC whose parents know the system and can advocate for them get better support than those who can’t (for a multitude of reasons). It shouldn’t be like that. That isn’t a judgement of the parents but of the system.

However, the system is what it is and it isn’t going to change any time soon, so all parents should be supported to challenge unlawful practices rather than accept them. There are charities and other support out there that can help. Even the SN boards on here will advise and hold someone’s hand through the process.

Hello, I am an EP and part of my job is working with early years children and having these discussions. Can I ask who the professionals are that are suggesting specialist?

As an EP I generally support parent preference (be that mainstream or specialist) unless I really feel the child needs the opposite and that’s quite rare. Sometimes I’ve had parents want mainstream and I’ve just absolutely known that specialist would be so much better for that child, and I will say that. So if professionals are saying specialist I would have a think because they generally don’t do it lightly.

Im pregnant currently and there is a chance my little boy will be autistic - it’s in the bloodline so to speak. If that happens, obviously depending on his needs, I’d be strongly looking at specialist. The concept of inclusion within mainstream is great in theory, in reality inclusion is about requiring children with additional needs and different ways of thinking to fit into the existing mainstream box. In my LA, there’s a move back towards specialist classes within mainstream settings which I think is the best of both worlds and can work really well.

What I would say is ask for a list of specialist settings - go and see them. There will absolutely be more than just the one you’ve seen and different specialist schools have different ‘flavours’. There might be one 20-30 mins away that suits much better and you can get help with transport/petrol costs. You often don’t know these schools exist until someone tells you where they are, so definitely ask.

Re the starting at 7 school, I’d find out more about it. Some specialist settings are actually private settings, which is fine and many LA children are obviously placed in those but they can be much harder to get in as they cost the LA 60-100k per year. With this school having a more unusual start point I’d wonder if it’s a private one. I should add too that just because a school is private doesn’t make it better than the LA offering in all cases, you’ve really got to go and see them and find what fits best for your child.

I really don't think that children with an EHCP in mainstream are getting exactly what their parents think...

DS3 receives all the provision in his EHCP. We would enforce the provision if he didn’t.

I can tell you that the success of a mainstream placement for ASD children depends on your child's needs. Not academics. Forget that, if you can. Academic needs will be well catered for in either provision.

The one factor that determines how happy your child will be is how they can tolerate busy, loud, ever changing environments. Do they have many sensory needs, communication needs, social difficulties, self regulation issues, meltdowns, time out needs... 1 member of staff assigned to your child cannot be enough to mitigate these risks, in reality. I'd strongly suggest you take up an SEN provision if your child has those needs. It's far easier to then after 2 or 3 years be transferred into mainstream than the other way round.

Please, for your child's sake don't try to make mainstream fit. In schools there are too many ASD young children spending large parts of the day screaming, distressed, having meltdowns. Often parents can't see that sending children to mainstream will not help their child to learn any social skills if they aren't there naturally. The best place to have that type of support is an SEN provision. Some ASD children can easily cope in mainstream but the best possible outcome is to make the decision on a needs led basis. Listen to the professionals working with your child, they are experienced and understand ASD.

Hell yes! The earlier the intervention the better. My son's Yr R and 1 teacher had 30 years of experience working with young autistic children. She was incredible. She dedicated those years to figuring out so many things about him, putting therapies and interventions into place, and he still benefits from those things now.

It's illegal to make their parents change their nappies.

Without wanting to sound argumentative (genuinely) - how do you know what goes on in the classroom when you aren't there?

The school can pinch resources provided by the EHCP in all kinds of ways without the parents knowing because there are no eyes on what is going on.

Quite a few children in our school had an EHCP that provided a 1:1 - they were often "borrowed" during the school day, here and there. The parents would have zero idea this is happening because the TA would be assigned to their DC so technically the provision was being met....it was just dipped into as a possible source of help for the class teacher when needed.... With lots of recent shortages over TAs and finances shrinking, parents aren't aware a lot of the time that their child isn't quite getting the focussed support they have been led to believe.

The parents may have agreed to that as part of the placement. Education staff in the mainstream setting don't need to provide intimate care. This is a misunderstanding of many parents.

Not understanding the real impact of ASD for many children just means they spend long periods of time distressed, having time out and not having needs met.

Staff working 121 are often untrained, inexperienced. I completely agree with the post you replied to, it's totally True!!