To want my autistic DC to start reception in mainstream?

[Ambern7]

DC gets on well at mainstream nursery but is developmentally behind peers. I am not happy with the special needs provisions in our area so have opted for mainstream with good support in place through EHCP, which we fought hard for.
However, professionals involved keep asking me if we are sure we don’t want to go with the special provisions, they have listed lots of things they think are great about the school, however I don’t think the facilities will benefit my DC personally.
These unwanted opinions have got me second guessing something I was so sure of previously. I just don’t see the problem of starting off in mainstream and seeing how it goes, AIBU?

If those EHCPs were detailed, specified and quantified as they should be it is possible for the EHCPs to be fully funded by the LA. Can you support the parents to appeal so the provision is enforceable and funded? Or at least signpost them to services that can help.

My understanding has always been that the school must fund the first few thousand out of notional SEN funding before the rest of the EHCP is funded? While that may be a small proportion of the overall cost, it is -iirc - a significant proportion of the per capita funding the school receives, so if eg there are 3 children with EHCPs, plus another 5 or so with SEN at lower levels (MyPlan / MyPlan+) who are not funded at all but do need provisions over and above what is routine in the classroom, the net amount left to fund the ‘routine’ elements of education for the class is significantly eroded.

EHCPs can be fully funded. LAs don’t like to advertise that fact and only do it when forced but it’s possible. DS3’s EHCP is fully funded. There are others on MN whose DC’s EHCP are fully funded too.

Most LAs have a 'high needs block' funding mechanism. If a school can demonstrate that the SEN needs of the children are particularly high, they can access extra funding.

It isn't always about money, though. DD1 has struggled in her new college so they called an emergency annual review. The LA openly said "If you need more money, tell us.' They know that if this placement fails for DD1, they'll have to fund an independent specialist college which will be £100k+. The college told the LA that more money won't help. They need DD1 to be safe and if they can't achieve that the placement will fail. They've made changes to her timetable, added more 1:1 time, added more sensory time, etc.

I've seen so many kids 'included' in MS. For the most part, 'inclusion' meant occupying them so that they didn't cause problems.

Most LAs have a 'high needs block' funding mechanism. If a school can demonstrate that the SEN needs of the children are particularly high, they can access extra funding.

What does ‘particularly high’ mean in today’s context, though? As i have said above, it’s absolutely the norm to have 6-9 children on the SEN register in each primary class. 3+ with or needing EHCPs is becoming unremarkable. Would block funding usually be accessed at this ‘new normal’ level? Or only above this?

Do fully funded EHCPs happen in response to schools refusing to pay for provision or can parents make it happen?

(What I mean us ‘3+ who would easily, in the past, have met the threshold for EHCPs’. That’s obviously not the same as ‘3+ who will be granted even partially funded EHCPs in a timely manner today’.)

@Thatsnotmycar

Could you please signpost us to these organisation?

I have heard that IPSEA are excellent, but also that it is really difficult to get through as they are so inundated with people asking for help.
I have also heard of SOS SEN.

Can you recommend anywhere else, as you are saying parents can get support, and schools, pre-schools and advisors can signpost families for support.

IPSEA (yes you have to persevere but the call in sessions help and there’s information on their website and they run courses which can be free for those who can’t afford it), SOSSEN (again you have to persevere but they also have lots of helpful information on their website and they run webinars), NAS’s Education rights helpline, Contact, Parents in Need, Support SEND Kids, local charities, parent carer support services, local SENDIASS (if your LA’s is any good), NFIS. There’s also numerous Facebook groups and the SN boards on here are supportive and helpful. Many don’t realise if you meet the eligibility criteria legal aid is available for SENDIST. Enquire if in Scotland, SNAPCymru if in Wales, SENAC if in NI.

Not specifically related to EHCPs but Scope offer mentoring to parents of DC diagnosed with ASD within the last year or are undergoing assessment.

Rollingupahill Parents can force the LA to fully fund and provide the EHCP if the school fail to provide the provision (as long as section F is detailed, specified and quantified). It can also happen as a result of a parent ensuring the EHCP is watertight. It can also be, as Lougle says, if the school has a large number high needs pupils.

cantkeepawayforever It depends on individual circumstances. Sometimes schools will receive high needs top up funding when it is ‘just’ about 1 pupil who has very high needs, and in different circumstances the school would need more than 3 DC with a high level of needs.

Thanks @Thatsnotmycar

I have signpost to some of them, but there are a couple that I didn't know about.
Our SENDIASS certainly isn't at a level where they can fight the LA for watertight specified and quantified Section F. They do their best but are not at that level.

I didn't know SCOPE offered mentoring to families on the waiting list for an Autism Assessment. I would have referred dc with Cerebral Palsy to SCOPE.

Sunshine Support on FB also have legal advice for EHCPs

Scope’s mentoring doesn’t just cover disabilities such as CP. SENDIASS are very variable, some are as much use as a chocolate teapot, others are extremely useful.

There’s also Cerebra who can provide some support directly (including about EHCPs but not to the same extent as e.g. IPSEA) and also in conjunction with the law department at the University of Leeds’ (not including the education provision in EHCPs but does include things like school transport, social care provision, healthcare provision, DFG). SENTAS can help with transport problems, too.

Sunshine Support’s views are divisive. If you AS them you will see threads on the feminism S&G board.

There are many paid advocate services, some better than others, so if parents go down that route they should choose wisely as some can do more harm than good.

I don't like sunshine support or operation diversity. I'm all for having paid for services available but there's a tenancy to charge extortionate amounts for things that are perfectly easy to do yourself too. I like the style of sendiass which is about supporting directly when needed but also empowering parents to do what they can themselves. I know different areas have different quality when it comes to sendiass though

I will happily force the LA to fund my children fully for their places. My children didn't ask to be disabled and frankly I save a fortune by being an unpaid carer. They will never have the same opportunities in life as the majority of their peers

I'd agree with treading very carefully with paid for advocates. As well as telephone support lines, IPSEA does have very limited capacity to provide a tribunal caseworker who can support in all aspects - meetings, WD and represent at hearing. It is a very limited service though, I am helping a friend who I think must tick a tonne of high priority boxes, but there's no guarantee she'll be at the top of the list before the hearing date.

Legal Aid is a mess too - friend entitled but could not find a solicitor with capacity. A shame as legal aid can fund up to 2 assessment reports (e.g. Ed Psych, OT, SALT) which would have made a significant difference for my friend. Parents In Need have limited funding available towards reports when you are appealing, but we had no joy there, though a different friend has.

But I do come back to the same point - Parents shouldn't be pressured into unsuitable placements be that special or mainstream. My LA is addressing the shortage of special placements by increasing funding on their banding system. It's farcical and no doubt children with SEN will be the ones to suffer because of it. Unfortunately, our local parent carer forum seems utterly besotted with the LA! It's bizarre, they fawn over a particular LA director, who seems to have them all wrapped around his finger.

They have 15 in reception and the last few years have actually had less than that.

I'm assuming they mix classes after Reception? I'm not aware of any state schools that can operate with 15 children per class. Do think careful about what will happen after Reception. Going from 15 children in Reception to potentially 30 children in a mixed 1/2 class is a bug step for any child, let alone one with additional needs.

Thatsnotmycar the reason I included all the support I have received was to show that I am well aware of how to get the funding my kids needed. My point is that if there were adequate special schools that were like the specialist school my kids attended the LA would save a fortune in funding these places. My la has just opened two schools for kids with ebmh difficulties. The classes are small and there will be therapy too. This is what is needed for many of our kids. What is needed is some capital spending to build new facilities. I also think the narrative on inclusion needs to change. Many kids with asd are unhappy in their mainstream school. In many cases the support is a sticking plaster that enables them to cope rather than thrive. When my kids attended a school set up for their needs the whole family could breathe again. My dd adores school now. Prior to this she was hurting people and biting herself in distress. She had all the support she could get but it wasn't enough.

Wanting more SS places places because you think inclusion isn’t working (and I agree, for many it isn’t, although for others it is. MS is the right place for DS3, he is happy and thriving and a SS place for him would cost far more.) is very different to saying not everyone can have the support they need (you actually said want but no-one gets support just because they want it) because there isn’t enough funding, which was the tone of your posts last night.

there's a tenancy to charge extortionate amounts for things that are perfectly easy to do yourself too.

supporting directly when needed but also empowering parents to do what they can themselves.

Our SENDIASS is in the pocket of the LA rubbish, but I agree with this. Where possible, giving parents the support, knowledge and confidence to advocate as much as they can will help them long term rather than just with the immediate difficulties. I think advocates need to become a regulated body, too. Although I’m not quite sure how that would work.

That would be a real concern for me. Also, a school that routinely doesn’t fill its PAN is going to struggle with general funding - which, as I said above, may not affect your child with a fully-funded EHCP (if that is what they have) but may well affect how supported other high needs children can be, thus affecting your child’s experience.

Careful OP - these are not good things. A very small school with a falling roll is vulnerable to funding issues in the short term and closure in the medium term.

@Forever42 @ThanksItHasPockets @cantkeepawayforever
Yes I see what you are saying but as we are thinking up to year 3 only, I don’t think school closure will be an issue.
Year 1 and 2 are mixed but spend a lot of time apart.
I know the school doesn’t have funding to add to to what we already have or have much for children who are unfunded. However the staff do seem really knowledgeable about ASD, they have plenty of experience with it in the school. And have been very welcoming and positive so far. My DC therapist will also be going into school regularly, so will let me know exactly what’s happening if the 121’s are being used elsewhere.
It really is the only type of mainstream set up that could work but obviously there is that situation with getting into the special school in year 3.

IME (pretty extensive, professionally and personally) small village schools are absolute disaster zones for kids with SEN. They have less funding, less equipment, less experience of high needs children, smaller cohort leads to a lot of insidious gossip among parents.

It's lovely to imagine your child at the local school, close to home, mixing with pals from the village. But what often follows is needs not being fully met, frustration, alienation.

I get it. I would love both of my children to have that lovely rural experience too. But it wouldn't suit either of them.

DS is in the sort of school you would probably avoid like the plague, a school for children with profound, severe and complex needs (autism in itself is a complex need). The spectrum of kids at his school ranges from non verbal, incontinent teenagers to verbal children learning national curriculum in a smaller, more understanding environment.

My DS is somewhere in the middle. He is in a small class of 8 kids, and there are 5 adults in the class. Each child is taken out at least twice a day for intensive 1-1 learning. Alongside that is free play, a bit like reception. A couple of the more able kids work together with an adult at a table for short numeracy or literacy tasks. If a child needs it, they can be taken just outside the classroom where an extensive sensory circuit space has their personalised sensory diet, they can then self regulate. They do forest school once a week. They go swimming. They have a guy called Kevin that comes in and does music with them once a week, who my DS LOVES. They do cooking. Art. Assembly once a week. The school has 3 soft play rooms. Two sensory rooms (one high tech). Adventure playground outside, sensory garden and giant trampoline.

A village school simply couldn't provide any of this.

My DD isn't disabled, and attends mainstream. She goes to a two form entry CofE school, which is really busy and has lots going on, with a big push on outdoor learning. This is exactly the right environment for her.

They're both where they need to be, even if it is a total pain in the arse to get them both to their separate locations every morning!

Small village schools often really struggle to recruit support staff as well.

It depends. However, I would agree that large schools with a ‘fairly high but stable’ number of high needs children have often had a pool of experienced support staff who are deployed as necessary each year - so when a supported child leaves Y6 their support staff stay on and are redeployed. Equally peer to peer training of staff is possible for specific interventions , and experienced TAs may deliver identified therapies to a number of different children.

While small schools can benefit from very good, long standing, loyal support staff drawn from the local community, new recruitment can be difficult, especially for a new starter child who may need to move elsewhere, leaving the support staff without a job.