Kids still feeling the effects of lockdowns…

[sloanedanger]

I just got caught reading a really interesting thread on Twitter started by a teacher:

“Is anyone else thinking we are starting to see the impact of 2 years of disruption and time at home, due to COVID 19, in schools? Extreme behaviours? Some pupils very emotional and struggling to regulate? Low attendance compared to normal? Winter bugs hitting hard?”

A lot of the comments say Y3 is the worst, others saying Years 7 and 8.

My DS is in Year 2 and often struggles with emotions and self regulation at school. It’s made me think, perhaps there’s a reason why linked to the pandemic. Lockdown was hard, DP and I were home with very young DC, trying to work, poor mental health, emotions high. Very little patience.

Democrat v Republican states are useful. Florida seems to be doing well from approach, politically it’s gone down well

This is the summary from the report I posted earlier comparing Sweden and Finland.

It says ‘In conclusion closure or not of schools had no measurable direct impact on the number of laboratory confirmed cases of school aged children in Sweden or Finland.

Outbreak investigations in Finland had not shown children to be contributing much in terms of transmission and in Sweden a report comparing risk of Covid 19 in different professions showed no increased risk for teachers.

If you read this report the cases actually went up in Finland when they closed the schools.

My own personal view, based on what I’ve read and seen happen, is that children, especially young children were not huge spreaders of Covid. Teachers were not dropping dead in Sweden.

Children were far more likely to pick up Covid from adults. And adults spread it amongst themselves.

In that case you can't argue that Sweden not closing schools had no impact on deaths either. Or you could just use common sense. It's pretty clear that in the UK, covid cases go up during term time and down during school holidays. Before vaccinations and treatments covid cases increasing led to an increase in covid deaths.

That doesn't really make sense.

In any case, the schools being open does mean you could track how children spread and reacted to covid.

holidays are also holidays for adults. Who will not be going to work, commuting etc. If kids really were these superspreaders that you claim, why were families with children not disproportionately negatively impacted by Covid?

Most adults still work during school holidays and even if they aren't they will be going out and about. They don't usually stay at home. I haven't said that school children are superspreaders. That doesn't mean that they don't spread it though, particularly if they are all close together in small classrooms.

If we look at data from the UK, where we actually live, leading up to the school closures in January, we have kids and young people massively more infected than adults, and we also have the minutes from the SAGE committee saying that children were more likely to be in the first in a household with covid (where were they catching it, hmm?) and more likely to pass it onto family members than adults were to pass it to them.

Ah the wonderful Sage and their accurate modelling. Did they actually get anything right during the pandemic?

Every single model wildly overstated the actual death rate. I hope there’s an enquiry in to them.

I would not use them as a source of research for anything to do with the pandemic. Far better sources out there.

Such as what, Delatron?
Keen to see these "much better sources."

Do you not understand the difference between data analysis and modelling?

I wouldn’t use anything from Sage to prove my point. They were well known for releasing ‘information’ to influence the behaviour that they wanted (or the government wanted)

@CallmeAngelina I’ve already linked to a research paper that is a comparison between 2 similar countries- one that closed the schools and one that didn’t. As this is relevant to the thread.

You’re a teacher - read the thread!

This thread isn’t about the teachers. It’s about the kids that have missed out on so much. And are still suffering. Nobody is blaming you. (Unless you supported the endless school closures). This is on the government.

You’re detracting from the thread by trying to prove the school closures were necessary. When we don’t have that information and people are sharing their stories about how their children have been affected.

@noblegiraffe Ah I’ve missed your patronising posts…

Their models were wildly inaccurate so forgive me if I take any ‘research’ from them with a pinch of salt.

So you're allowed to post stuff like this, Delatron "My own personal view, based on what I’ve read and seen happen, is that children, especially young children were not huge spreaders of Covid."

But when anyone dares to contradict you with actual data, it's "detracting from the thread"?

Right.

And dismissing SAGE is very convenient, isn't it. That's not modelling that I've posted, but analysis of data. The graph that I've posted is not modelling, it's actual infection rates in the English population.

So if your opinion is that 'children were not huge spreaders of covid', you are ignoring data, not modelling.

I think most people dismiss anything that comes out of Sage. I prefer to get my information from less biased sources (and a good variety). There is new information coming out now about the cost of lockdowns. That is what this discussion is about.

I’d rather not derail this thread in to an argument with you @noblegiraffe

It was a thread where people were sharing stories about how their children were affected badly by lockdown. And you’ve now typically made it in to one of your rants - trying to point score and resorting to your patronising italics.. What a shame. I see nothing has changed and you still have a lot of misplaced anger.

I’d rather not derail this thread in to an argument with you

Try not to post crap about how kids don’t spread covid then. And by the way, the graph is data collected by the ONS, not SAGE.

Incidentally, I posted a couple of posts about covid harms to children, how they’ve not been addressed in the past couple of years, plus potential solutions. No one engaged or followed up. It seems that on this thread all certain people want to do is moan about lockdown and how terribly unnecessary it was again and again and again. No looking at actually helping kids now.

It was a thread where people were sharing stories about how their children were affected badly by lockdown.

It absolutely was. A space for those of us whose children were very badly affected by the measures taken. And many of us feel that the measures taken - especially in the later months of the pandemic - were not made with the best interests of children at heart.

Children, whether they were germ ridden little superspreaders or not, were not in the age group where getting Covid was a real risk for them. Yet they were kept out of school for months on end, not allowed to see their friends, made to repeatedly isolate because someone in one of their classes was positive, wear masks for months, miss exams two years running - all to "protect the vulnerable".

Many of us feel that was completely disproportionate.

If you're interested in what it's like in schools now, try this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4685680-staffing-crisis-in-schools-teachersschool-staff-whats-your-school-like

You know I still can't get my head around why exams were cancelled in 2021.
2020 it made logical sense.

But once schools went back in Aug / Sept I don't get why it couldn't have been arranged for exams to have been held socially distanced using sports halls / open plan offices / church halls / community centres / hotel function suits.

There were plenty empty buildings that could have been made available. Instead kids were put under horrendous pressure of constant assessments, and class tests as teachers were trying to gather evidence of kids abilities.
Then Scotland did those 'assessments' under exam conditions but they weren't exams.

You know I still can't get my head around why exams were cancelled in 2021.

This was an utterly bizarre decision, and as far as I'm aware, nothing to do with the DfE who found out almost as it was announced. Perhaps it was Johnson's decision, a kind of petulant foot stamping "close schools, cancel everything".

There was no plan, Ofqual couldn't come up with one which they admitted in February, they passed the buck to schools, and schools were once more dropped in a pile of shit, having to do the job of exam boards without the resources or pay, while trying to keep schools running.

And we're still dealing with the fallout from that too.

I work as a supply across primaries and everyone is saying the same about year 1/2 - they're not emotionally at the same levels as usual.

Yes my DD sat her Nat 5 exams in 2021 and all year they were told that it would be continuous assessment, portfolios, unit tests in class and that was the case until about Feb when something changed and they sprung exams on them.

Scottish schools were out from Christmas 2020 to April 2021 though which I think had a lot to do with it, they felt it was unfair to put kids through formal exams when they hadn't been in school for 4 months - the exams generally start last week in April in Scotland.

Whatever the reasons, it was horrendously stressful for them to think it was Plan A, then have Plan B sprung on them at the last minute. And it also meant that when she sat her Highers in 2022, that was the first time she'd sat proper exams.

It was the uncertainty and the dithering from the Scottish government throughout - the "blended learning full time" went to "blended learning? We never said blended learning! Back to school full time" in about 2 minutes. It was very unsettling for children who are used to parents/teachers having the answers and not being able to get concrete answers to anything. Just AWFUL.

Yes they sprung the assessments on the schools and kids at the last minute. Assessments that were held under exam conditions that weren't exams.

Meanwhile the time that teachers had been using to gather evidence of abilities could have been used to actually teach.

I'm actually glad my oldest was primary school rather going through the utter shite that Scot Gov put the secondary kids through.

It was a very stressful time in our house.

In fact, it was around this time that we decided to fuck the rules for teenagers and social contact and allow DD to start seeing her best friend for pizza and Netflix. The two situations were not unconnected.

@HeraldicBlazoning I honestly don't blame you.

So much on this stuff all seems to have been completely forgotten about. Along with the zero covid which was clearly never going to happen. The whole thing was used as an SNP flag waving exercise.

@Delatron @noblegiraffe

I think most people dismiss anything that comes out of Sage.

You don't speak for most people, Delatron. Your arrogant dismissal and attempted bullying of Noble off the thread was quite transparent. She has every right to post (and it is quite relevant).

But this seems to show little to no connection betwen huge spikes for kids and the most vulenerable age groups. Noone is arguing that children don't get infected at all (I think?), but rather that keeping schools open wouldn't have led to loads of death. The graph more or less there proves that doesn't it? Kids getting Covid isn't as of itself an issue because they are no dying of it (generally). And I guess that's what the Sweden thing shows - schools open do not equal load of extra deaths.

Also the Sep-Oct rise can't be attributed only to schools just because it coincides with term. This is also post holidays, where people are starting to socialise inside again etc.

In either case, the whole point is this hindsight consideration of the pandemic response is that presumably, measures had to be proportionate and satisfy a benefit vs risk analysis. Yes, you will see some spread in schools, but so will there be in pubs and they manage to open before the schools. And some might argue rceiving an education and social contact with your peers is more important than a pint. In fact loads of stuff opened before schools, including loads of workplaces were spread was rife. So economics was seen as an appropriate benefit to make the risk worth it. But children weren't.