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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Prosecution for lying about income to CMS

53 replies

Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 22:53

Am I being unreasonable to think that all maintenance dodgers should be prosecuted when they have wilfully and now proved to have “criminally” diverted income to avoid paying for THEIR children. I’m my opinion they should as this economic crime has far reaching and huge implications for the welfare of many, most importantly the child/children and the ex partner they are continuing to financially control and abuse.

www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshire/news/ps100k-year-businessman-sentenced-dodging-years-child-maintenance-payments

Every single RP parent who is in the horrendous CMS system who has an ex who is hiding or diverting income or who is not paying the maintenance they should or who has arrears is criminal in their approach.

From this MP interaction, I’ve always been drawn to Caroline Noakes statement

”I congratulate the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) on securing this important debate, and I thank the Minister for taking time earlier today to speak to me about some of the cases that are of concern to me in my constituency.

Once upon a time, I was the Minister with responsibility for the CMS, and my worry is that our debate will degenerate into an attack on the hard-working staff. I know from my own experience how diligent they are—sometimes in the most difficult of circumstances, trying to track down parents who refuse to pay and investigating those very difficult cases where people deliberately hide their income. I think there is a special place in hell for those who go out of their way to disguise income to prevent their former partner from being able to feed their children, or to buy school shoes or a new winter coat.

From the work that has been done by Gingerbread and others, I am conscious that single parents have been hit very hard during this pandemic, and we know that 80% of them are women. As Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, I am extremely interested in how well the CMS has coped with the many cases in which income has varied over the course of the pandemic. Of course, that means that variations will have to be efficient and quick. As parents come off furlough, it is possible for their income to go up as well as down.

We know that the strain on families during the pandemic has increased. I thank the Minister for the work that he is doing with victims of domestic abuse, and I thank my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for the priority that he has given to that. It is important to reflect on the fact that not all domestic abuse is physical. Some of it is financial, and I have heard numerous times from constituents over the last nine months about the financial abuse they have suffered at the hands of ex-partners, and how the CMS has been drawn into that as variation after variation is requested and income is disguised. I have been privy to the emails from parents threatening, “Unless you agree to this figure, I will just keep asking for a variation so you get nothing.”

I also heard this morning from a constituent who has been forced to contact her former partner’s employer herself, because the CMS has not been in a position to chase up the direct deduction from earnings order that she was entitled to. She feels very strongly, and she is right, that she should not be the one who has to chase it up. If the CMS has a deduction from earnings order in place, it should be contacting the employer when the money has not gone through.

Finally, I would like to raise the case of my constituent Stuart McAuliffe, whose issues with the CMS long predate the pandemic but have been exacerbated by it. Some of that is about the fact that CMS staff did not have access to records at the beginning of the pandemic, but for years he has been asking for a breakdown of the amount that he owes in arrears—the charges that he believes were wrongly levied as part of a collect and pay arrangement, when he had been on direct pay and had been paying regularly. He feels very strongly that he should never have been moved to collect and pay, and that those charges have been accrued wrongly.

My constituent has asked for a schedule of payments, but he has been told that that information is not available. Surely, it must be available. Anybody who is involved with the CMS should be entitled to look at a breakdown of what they have paid, what arrears there may be and what charges may be on their account. The only information that he gets from the CMS is that it cannot provide him with that detail. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister if he will look at the case personally so that my constituent can finally get some resolution.

I think it is crucial that we recognise that the CMS is working in incredibly difficult times, and that it has many challenges in front of it. However, it is critical that paying parents and parents with care are given the support that they need at this difficult time. As the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw said, no child should be going without and no child should be suffering because of the CMS.”

hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2021-01-21/debates/0E3957B0-D917-4B4B-9D08-0C7F6486B4AB/Covid-19ChildMaintenanceService

NOTHNG HAS CHANGED… NOTHING! There’s a special place in hell for these ‘Politicians’ who do nothing to action change and lift children out of poverty, give them a better start in life and ALSO protect women (RPs) from abuse.

We need a movement, we need a collective approach and this could be a starting point. Over 50% of the population are now female. We need to make our voices heard. This could be your sister, your friend, your daughter. Believe me, you want us to change this system should your loved ones ever find themselves in it, and they could. Petitions have been done… time and time again… MPs have debated it… time and time again, for years. NOTHING has changed. What do we do? This is a hugely gendered issue and as the mother of two daughters I do not want to see her his injustice and toxic culture continue into their generation.

So, am I being unreasonable to think prosecution is a necessary step to send a very clear message and hopefully bring society in line with what should be a collective ‘societal thought’ to those who evade paying for their children. That thought being, they are criminals, and should be treated as such.

OP posts:
Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:12

I’m at a loss that someone has already voted that I’m being unreasonable. I’d love to know your thoughts behind that vote. I welcome all votes and I’m happy to hear both sides. I am however stumped to understand how anyone could think not paying fair maintenance for your child/children is not something that should be a priority… should have serious consequences if not upheld.

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cleanbreak2022 · 22/11/2022 23:22

I have recently found myself using CMS and having to involve my MP as recently as last week. My exp works for local government and the DOE order was returned to sender in August, I was due my first payment in October and it never came. Only after involving my MP was it reissued and now I will not see any regular maintenance until end of January and the arrears? Who knows?
I agree, the system is ridiculous and over complicated. There are too many loop holes, too many considerations. My exp is now deliberately reducing his income.
It's ridiculous and not very effective

Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:24

Very much an ‘eye opener’ for me that I’m being unreasonable is more predominant at this stage. How sad for our children, especially in a female dominated forum. It’s now easy to see how much we are ‘up against it’ and how awfully skewed the narrative is. It’s ok not to have equal financial responsibility for your children but you want equal rights? Something is hugely wrong in this picture.

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Lockheart · 22/11/2022 23:24

Didn't you already post this exact same thread?

SpinningFloppa · 22/11/2022 23:25

5/6 years without a penny I’m past caring now, there will never be any consequences and cms don’t do anything about non payment.

Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:29

Cleanbreak I have another post about this and how you need to bypass CMS… you will never get a fair outcome with them, you need to go to tribunal. Submit a variation/mandatory reconsideration and they’ll reject it- they always do. Now fill in your SSC2 form can be found online or in my post and go after him that way. It takes you out the ridiculous system and gives you a fighting chance. Good luck.

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TinFoilHatty · 22/11/2022 23:29

Remember the 'voting' can be Inadvertent Fat Thumb, please don't take any notice.

Wrt the scourge of non paying absent parents, there ought to be penalties for non compliance. The collection system remains rubbish.

Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:30

Did I?

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Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:32

Spinning you must fill in the form to go to tribunal. CMS appeals form. It’s your only chance.

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Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:39

Apologies I see where you’re coming from. I do have a separate thread but this one was to ask whether maintenance dodgers should be prosecuted as opposed to looking for advice on maintenance dodgers and the tribunal stage, so slightly different to my original one. Sorry if I confused you.

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SpinningFloppa · 22/11/2022 23:41

I’m not going to fight it I don’t need his money thankfully so more stress than it’s worth. Also have zero proof of what he is doing and no way to get any.

MintJulia · 22/11/2022 23:44

Yanbu. I'd implement measures such as removing passports and driving licences as well.

SweetSakura · 22/11/2022 23:44

My ex gets paid largely cash in hand now. CMS don't care at all that his lifestyle is miles away from his income.

But what maintenance he did /does pay he uses to try and financially control me. Withholding it to punish me. Delaying paying it at the most expensive times of year.

He also fought for lots of contact in court (despite evidence he didn't even have all the times he was meant to have them) but as soon as he had near 50/50 on paper he stopped actually wanting to have them on a lot of his alloted contact days.

The whole system needs overhauling

SweetSakura · 22/11/2022 23:45

My solution has been to climb the career ladder so I am not dependent on his money, but there has been a huge amount of good luck in me being able to do that (not least having a supportive employer)

Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:46

But you do spinning, take it to tribunal. They will ask for the evidence. CMS have led us to believe we have no way forward. You do. Use it. Your children deserve to be supported by both parents. They do!

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ILOVEYOUSON · 22/11/2022 23:49

I appreciate the posts OP!
My exs wife dictates how much my child gets. And their life style no way matches up to what she allows my son!
Because of limited business they can hide money so easily

SpinningFloppa · 22/11/2022 23:49

I don’t have any evidence he is not in our lives, there is no proof.

Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:51

Sweet I applaud you and I know where you’re coming from but this system is not ok. I would be so sad to think of any of my daughters in your shoes and that is why I’m not giving up. This is another misogynistic horrendous system that NEEDS to change. For the further of our children and a more balanced, fair society. We ALL need to be on board, no matter what our individual circumstances might be.

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Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:51

*future

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breatheinskipthegym · 22/11/2022 23:54

I totally agree, YANBU. Y’know when they publish those headline figures about how much is ‘lost’ to benefits overpayments, tax dodgers etc? They need to add unpaid maintenance to that, and keep the issue front and centre. Enforcing child maintenance would lift many children out of poverty.

My ex earns more than £100k and pays our children around a quarter of what he should. He lives in the U.K. but claims not to, so doesn’t pay tax either. Enforcing child maintenance in many cases would also increase tax yield. Funny how there’s no interest in this money-making area.

Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:55

www.gov.uk/government/publications/appeal-a-child-maintenance-group-decision-by-the-dwp-form-sscs2

use this form after you’ve submitted a mandatory reconsideration to CMS, wait for the rejection and send this back within 30 days, you’ve now got a chance at a fair decision. Good luck.

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Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:57

use this form after you’ve submitted a mandatory reconsideration to CMS, wait for the rejection and send this back within 30 days, you’ve now got a chance at a fair decision. Good luck.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/appeal-a-child-maintenance-group-decision-by-the-dwp-form-sscs2

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HerrenaHarridan · 22/11/2022 23:57

I was just grateful when he left us alone.

I recently found out that at 12 you can claim cms on your own behalf but I’m not sure I’ll tell dd that

I agree in principle op. Parents not caring for their child should have earnings/benefits deducted to contribute directly.

It should not be an option to walk away from that and could be set up relatively easily with a bit of joined up thinking.

However I also think that those of us who know our parents chose not to do that can make a decision based on their actions

Had they been forced you might misunderstand what that means from their side.
At least when the do completely just fuck you off you’re not kidding yourself it’s something else.

If their dad truly doesn’t care let them go and fill your child’s life with your love and presence. They’ll be ok in the end

Ponderingwindow · 23/11/2022 00:01

I would start by not allowing downward adjustments of payments without proof that continuing to make the existing payment is impossible. Same for adjustments down in declared income. The NRP should need to show that they are too sick to work long term, simply can’t find a job with an equivalent salary, or that their business really is failing, rather than just declaring a new lower income and reducing payments.

RP can cut back on extras when there is a reduction in income but they still have to cover necessities no matter what happens. Some NRP pay enough maintenance that it might actually begins to touch non-essentials, but the majority of child maintenance payers are not paying close to half of the absolute bare bones requirements. That is a bill that really shouldn’t be able to be discharged or reduced below a certain floor regardless of change in circumstances.

Toastandavocado · 23/11/2022 00:05

Completely agree.

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