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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Prosecution for lying about income to CMS

53 replies

Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 22:53

Am I being unreasonable to think that all maintenance dodgers should be prosecuted when they have wilfully and now proved to have “criminally” diverted income to avoid paying for THEIR children. I’m my opinion they should as this economic crime has far reaching and huge implications for the welfare of many, most importantly the child/children and the ex partner they are continuing to financially control and abuse.

www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshire/news/ps100k-year-businessman-sentenced-dodging-years-child-maintenance-payments

Every single RP parent who is in the horrendous CMS system who has an ex who is hiding or diverting income or who is not paying the maintenance they should or who has arrears is criminal in their approach.

From this MP interaction, I’ve always been drawn to Caroline Noakes statement

”I congratulate the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) on securing this important debate, and I thank the Minister for taking time earlier today to speak to me about some of the cases that are of concern to me in my constituency.

Once upon a time, I was the Minister with responsibility for the CMS, and my worry is that our debate will degenerate into an attack on the hard-working staff. I know from my own experience how diligent they are—sometimes in the most difficult of circumstances, trying to track down parents who refuse to pay and investigating those very difficult cases where people deliberately hide their income. I think there is a special place in hell for those who go out of their way to disguise income to prevent their former partner from being able to feed their children, or to buy school shoes or a new winter coat.

From the work that has been done by Gingerbread and others, I am conscious that single parents have been hit very hard during this pandemic, and we know that 80% of them are women. As Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, I am extremely interested in how well the CMS has coped with the many cases in which income has varied over the course of the pandemic. Of course, that means that variations will have to be efficient and quick. As parents come off furlough, it is possible for their income to go up as well as down.

We know that the strain on families during the pandemic has increased. I thank the Minister for the work that he is doing with victims of domestic abuse, and I thank my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for the priority that he has given to that. It is important to reflect on the fact that not all domestic abuse is physical. Some of it is financial, and I have heard numerous times from constituents over the last nine months about the financial abuse they have suffered at the hands of ex-partners, and how the CMS has been drawn into that as variation after variation is requested and income is disguised. I have been privy to the emails from parents threatening, “Unless you agree to this figure, I will just keep asking for a variation so you get nothing.”

I also heard this morning from a constituent who has been forced to contact her former partner’s employer herself, because the CMS has not been in a position to chase up the direct deduction from earnings order that she was entitled to. She feels very strongly, and she is right, that she should not be the one who has to chase it up. If the CMS has a deduction from earnings order in place, it should be contacting the employer when the money has not gone through.

Finally, I would like to raise the case of my constituent Stuart McAuliffe, whose issues with the CMS long predate the pandemic but have been exacerbated by it. Some of that is about the fact that CMS staff did not have access to records at the beginning of the pandemic, but for years he has been asking for a breakdown of the amount that he owes in arrears—the charges that he believes were wrongly levied as part of a collect and pay arrangement, when he had been on direct pay and had been paying regularly. He feels very strongly that he should never have been moved to collect and pay, and that those charges have been accrued wrongly.

My constituent has asked for a schedule of payments, but he has been told that that information is not available. Surely, it must be available. Anybody who is involved with the CMS should be entitled to look at a breakdown of what they have paid, what arrears there may be and what charges may be on their account. The only information that he gets from the CMS is that it cannot provide him with that detail. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister if he will look at the case personally so that my constituent can finally get some resolution.

I think it is crucial that we recognise that the CMS is working in incredibly difficult times, and that it has many challenges in front of it. However, it is critical that paying parents and parents with care are given the support that they need at this difficult time. As the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw said, no child should be going without and no child should be suffering because of the CMS.”

hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2021-01-21/debates/0E3957B0-D917-4B4B-9D08-0C7F6486B4AB/Covid-19ChildMaintenanceService

NOTHNG HAS CHANGED… NOTHING! There’s a special place in hell for these ‘Politicians’ who do nothing to action change and lift children out of poverty, give them a better start in life and ALSO protect women (RPs) from abuse.

We need a movement, we need a collective approach and this could be a starting point. Over 50% of the population are now female. We need to make our voices heard. This could be your sister, your friend, your daughter. Believe me, you want us to change this system should your loved ones ever find themselves in it, and they could. Petitions have been done… time and time again… MPs have debated it… time and time again, for years. NOTHING has changed. What do we do? This is a hugely gendered issue and as the mother of two daughters I do not want to see her his injustice and toxic culture continue into their generation.

So, am I being unreasonable to think prosecution is a necessary step to send a very clear message and hopefully bring society in line with what should be a collective ‘societal thought’ to those who evade paying for their children. That thought being, they are criminals, and should be treated as such.

OP posts:
Toastandavocado · 23/11/2022 00:07

I agree with your sentiment but we should have a system that will protect our daughters going forward. We’re utterly backward as a nation on this.

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SweetSakura · 23/11/2022 00:10

Toastandavocado · 22/11/2022 23:51

Sweet I applaud you and I know where you’re coming from but this system is not ok. I would be so sad to think of any of my daughters in your shoes and that is why I’m not giving up. This is another misogynistic horrendous system that NEEDS to change. For the further of our children and a more balanced, fair society. We ALL need to be on board, no matter what our individual circumstances might be.

Oh I totally agree. I did what I had to do to break free of his abuse. But the system shouldn't enable it. It's not ok. And not everyone would have the good fortune to do what I did.

GiraffesAreTheBestDancers · 23/11/2022 07:56

I totally agree OP. The system is clearly not fit for purpose, and the contribution levels even when paid are derisory. Even the US does this better than the UK. It needs a total overhaul.

Funny how there's not a problem collecting student loans, so why is this so difficult? Sounds like they're even making a mess of it for those on PAYE!

GiraffesAreTheBestDancers · 23/11/2022 07:57

And yes, non-payment should be prosecuted as per tax evasion.

IncompleteSenten · 23/11/2022 07:59

This is one area I think the Americans have it right. They don't make it easy for people to not pay.

Or have the government pay the cm and reclaim it from the other parent. I'm certain they'd be getting every penny owed if they did it that way!

IncompleteSenten · 23/11/2022 08:03

Forgot to say about the lying. Yes they should be fully investigated if they are reported. The government can certainly do that. It's only that they don't think it's important.it needs to cost the government money when people avoid paying the correct amount for their kids.
Enough money that they actually care about stopping it.

Dotjones · 23/11/2022 08:08

I think YABU because your question is basically "should people be prosecuted for committing fraud?" and the answer is quite obviously yes.

The real issue is people who legally hide their income, because they can't be prosecuted.

Toastandavocado · 23/11/2022 09:09

Yes the Americans seem to take it very seriously. I read recently that they even put up signs in some places banning those from entering who don’t pay child maintenance. That would quickly see a societal shift.

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IncompleteSenten · 23/11/2022 11:01

The problem is that here it seems that parents paying towards their children's care is optional.
She doesn't need it.
I don't want her to spend my money
Even new partners complaining about how much the ex gets and how can they pay less.

It needs to become repugnant to people that a parent would even consider not providing for their children to the best of their ability.

mumonherphone · 23/11/2022 11:17

I agree that men shouldn't lie about income to cms.

However I know someone who spent a lot of money in legal fees taking his ex to court to get more contact with his child, and wanted 50/50 time. He was given every other weekend and one night inbetween. It has changed my view slightly on child support as it seems unfair when dads would happily have thier children 50% of the time but get given less time and have to pay child support instead.

Sirzy · 23/11/2022 11:25

I think there are massive failings on all side with the CMS and it’s simply not fit for purpose.

i know someone who has had CMS admit they have made massive errors in his case (he had proof he had paid, over what was mandated, but they still took the word of his ex) but their systems don’t let them correct it.

it seems no two people sing from the same hymn sheet there which means when errors happen whichever side things simply get brushed under the carpet.

Kimya · 23/11/2022 11:45

My uncle killed himself when the CMS decided to order him to pay more than he was actually earning.

FluffyPancake · 23/11/2022 11:53

I’m thrilled for this ONE person but why aren’t they using their powers more often like this? I’m owed thousands and keep getting fobbed off. I’m on a CMS FB group and it’s all the same with the ex partners being serial payment dodgers. I once accidentally joined a page for paying parents and they were all giving each other tips on how to pay less!! Unbelievable. It’s like they forget that it’s their own children they’re paying for, don’t they love them?

FluffyPancake · 23/11/2022 11:56

MintJulia · 22/11/2022 23:44

Yanbu. I'd implement measures such as removing passports and driving licences as well.

Apparently in America there are signs in the DMV saying that you can’t renew your drivers licence if you owe child support!!! Not sure if this is every state though but I was just like 😮 when I heard that.

MintJulia · 23/11/2022 12:11

FluffyPancake · 23/11/2022 11:56

Apparently in America there are signs in the DMV saying that you can’t renew your drivers licence if you owe child support!!! Not sure if this is every state though but I was just like 😮 when I heard that.

The trouble is, the kind of person who refuses to pay child support will then also refuse to renew their driving licence, but would still drive. No licence means no insurance, which puts everyone at risk.

And with no driving licence, it's more difficult to get a job...

Taking passports away though. Stop non-payers going on holiday. That might be more effective.

Par91 · 23/11/2022 12:18

MintJulia · 22/11/2022 23:44

Yanbu. I'd implement measures such as removing passports and driving licences as well.

Why?

GiraffesAreTheBestDancers · 23/11/2022 12:26

Because people don't deserve any of the benefits of living in society if they won't behave like decent members of that society.

ChiefWiggumsBoy · 23/11/2022 12:36

IncompleteSenten · 23/11/2022 07:59

This is one area I think the Americans have it right. They don't make it easy for people to not pay.

Or have the government pay the cm and reclaim it from the other parent. I'm certain they'd be getting every penny owed if they did it that way!

Came here to say the same.

Yes NR parents who don't pay and who hide earnings should be prosecuted. I genuinely don't understand some of the stories you read on here though - how the CMS 'can't find' income - going to a NR parent who is employed?! Makes no sense. Why is there no joined up thinking in government departments?!

Anyfeckinusername · 23/11/2022 12:38

Absolutely 100% agree with you.

The current CMS system is "something"/better than nothing - but that doesn't mean it's OK.

Institutional sexism is at play if 80% of single parents are the mums (I thought it was a higher percentage).

I get the can't be bothered to pursue it angle too, but that only shows how the system is failing. The effort of it is exhausting and stressful.

I can afford for my two children. I have a career. Does that mean my ex doesn't need to contribute to his children with his income? Does it fuck. He is duty bound to provide for them. I wound never, ever let them go cold/hungry/without - it is the only thing we should share - the shared responsibility towards our kids.

Par91 · 23/11/2022 12:41

GiraffesAreTheBestDancers · 23/11/2022 12:26

Because people don't deserve any of the benefits of living in society if they won't behave like decent members of that society.

True. I just don't see how having a passport taken away would do much.. as for no driving license though. What if they need it to get to work or actually drive for a living? CMS are crap. We know this. Fines separate from any arrears through CMS or CCJs would probably be better. But that's just my opinion.

Toastandavocado · 24/11/2022 17:52

Thanks mumsnetters. You have restored my faith in humanity. I was starting to seriously wonder if I was in the minority of thinking that the UK are an absolute joke when it comes to taking child maintenance seriously and it is both parents (not just responsibility) but legal obligation to ensure their children are properly financially supported. As others have highlighted a small percentage of an NRP’s income (overwhelming fathers) shouldn’t be too much to ask for and it should surely be considered a criminal offence to evade paying this, in any way. Routinely prosecuting would be a huge step forward in making us a country that takes this seriously (just like any other benefit fraud) and would send a clear message that it won’t be tolerated. This would actually help the NRP’s who also report to be victims of the system as the fact finding involved in a case should bring the truth out into the open. It’s far too easy to lose sight of what’s important in all of this, a child’s legal right to be properly financially supported by both parents post separation and the difference this makes to their life chances, life experiences and outcomes.

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ForfuckssakeEXHstopbeingatwat · 24/11/2022 17:59

Dammit..lost a bet with myself that "whatabouttery" would start on P1 but we got to p2 before we got "what about hard done by nrps and evil exes". 🙄 Start a different thread..it has NO relevance to this one.

Toastandavocado · 24/11/2022 18:13

😂 this is so true, I nearly got myself tangled up in saying, on balance regarding the NRP’s then I thought… hang on a minute, that’s not what I’m concerned about here, it’s the little, living, breathing innocents who are not getting a fair deal. We need to be their voice in this horrendous system… and exactly as you say, start another thread in support of the NRP’s who are ‘genuinely’ being unfairly treated with regards to actually properly financially supporting their children. I just don’t buy the narrative that fathers can’t pay for their children (of course in times of hardship or job loss or ill health) some allowances would be made, however all resident mothers that I know would be walking over hot coals to ensure their children didn’t go without, no matter what their circumstances. They don’t have a choice. And this is where the injustice is so glaringly obvious but not supported by the ‘system’ or wider society in the UK. It needs to change.

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Coffeesnob11 · 24/11/2022 18:15

Why can't they take cms via the tax code for all those on paye? That would at least cover a lot of people. Attach it to their NI number and they would have to back pay too. Those that fill in tax returns could have it taken then with dividends being looked at for those with companies set up to favour minimum wage but dividends. Those with assets pay higher capital gains. That should then leave more people at the cms to work on those trying to escape the system by doing cash in hand work and sort out back pay. Dare I say you could even put a charge on property or on probate for outstanding amounts. We don't get away with not paying council tax or income tax so why is it so different for cms. Also I think they should scrap individual arrangements as then the amounts are updated as the nrp earns more and those who have been abused don't have to have any contact with their abuser.

Toastandavocado · 24/11/2022 18:20

Coffee wish they had you in on the CMS system meeting when they were working out, how to make it work. Call me cynical but it seems strange these things wouldn’t already be in place. Could it be anything to do with the circumstances of the individuals who are likely to be decision makers in such meetings 🤔

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