David Badiel - Jews Don't Count. Shocked

[Everanewbie]

AIBU to be disappointed and upset at the blindspot for antisemitism that was highlighted in last night's excellent documentary? The Leigh Francis part was especially revealing to me. The (quite correct) groveling apologies for the Michael Jackson, Craig David and Mel B characters were a contrast to the defining silence on the David Badiel character.

What is more, the reaction from the left-wing commentators (Owen Jones, et al) on twitter seem to suggest that Badiel says other racism doesn't exist, which feels like a deliberate and willful misrepresentation.

Baddiel is an arse, and I’m not convinced that he still doesn’t harbour some of those nasty opinions that he had in the past.
However, even if he hadn’t been found wanting on these issues, I still dont accept the premise of his argument that anti semitism is not treated as seriously as other forms of racism.
Alk the evidence suggests otherwise!

Agree Florenz

I don’t agree with everything they do, but if I had to live in the ME it would be the obvious choice.

Sorry but he’s not saying ‘no other race has it as bad as the Jews’ at all. He’s saying that anti-semitism is not seen as racism.
as I said above, I’m Jewish and I don’t agree with all Baddiel’s views, but he is not saying that Jewish people have it worse than black or Asian people at all.
i have even witnessed it in a Jewish organisation by a non Jewish member of staff. I sort of brushed it off but my other non Jewish colleague reported it. As Jewish people we’ve become immune to the micro aggressions but she saw it for what it was.

@Holidayfinder Yes, you have appear to have made your feelings very clear through this whole thread, yet you have literally ignored evidence that has been provided. It's almost as if...

@HolidayfinderAnd just to add, your discriminatory attitude throughout the thread may not be quite so obvious to non-Jews, but it will be to Jews.

@Holidayfinder where do you stand on the premise raised in the document that the left has an anti semitism issue, and one reason my be that Jews are somehow seen as powerful, and therefore fair game.

im surprised you deny a problem in the Labour Party tbh

It's rather telling that throughout the entire documentary there was no mention at all of the experiences of religious Jews, many thousands of whom could be found in Stamford Hill or Golders Green/Hendon. A quick twitter search of Stamford Hill will bring up many incidents of violence and verbal abuse motivated by Jew hatred, sometimes on an almost daily basis.

Perhaps it's Orthodox Jews who don't count, or as Baddiel himself not that long ago tweeted: Fucking frummers.

I don’t think other groups or communities have it worse than Jews, and I don’t think Baddiel is saying that either. Baddiel is saying that antisemitism is more causally accepted, or denied or unchecked - this is just not true.

Kanye West has made seriously racist comments for years and his career has never suffered, he was arguably one of the most successful people on the planet. He then makes antisemitic comments, he loses all his deals and there is outcry. I don’t think he can ever come back from this and there is so much conversation online about a strive for change that wasn’t afforded to his other comments and bigotry.

There was antisemitism within the Labour Party, a full enquiry was conducted and the party leader was ousted for saying it was overstated by the Tory Party. Boris Johnson has made multiple racist and discriminatory comments, and holds very unsavoury views, but despite this went on to be prime minister. He would never have got into that position had he had been antisemitic, as we saw with the Labour Party, there would have been outcry (and rightly so, but black people and Muslims shouldn’t be fair game).

Of course antisemitism is racism, but it is far from the least recognised or cared about. Quite the opposite. For Baddiel to say this with a straight face, despite everything he has done and that has happened in UK politics, is ludicrous.

Perhaps it's Orthodox Jews who don't count, or as Baddiel himself not that long ago tweeted: Fucking frummers.

"Stupid fucking frummers" was what he Tweeted, over a newspaper story about Heredi Jews not following covid guidelines during the pandemic. Just for context. And then: "many Jews feel it's important to say not in my name."

Dare I google "frummers"?

Dare I google "frummers"?

Yes, it's a risk-free google.

What racist comments did Kanye West make?

It's a Jewish word for very Orthodox Jews (Haredim). the ones you would recognise as Jewish, with sidelocks and big black hats, etc.

I don't know why I am still posting on this thread, though, which has become the usual cesspit of antisemites cheering each other on and repeating the same old racist tropes, with pretty much every Jewish person and/or reasonable human being long gone. I need to hide it now. I suppose it proves the point or something, but I promised myself years ago not to get sucked into these toxic waste dumps any more.

www.letmegooglethatforyou.com

Utter bollocks. He has apologised several times, including to his victim, who has accepted it. Who we were is not who we are now. According to a lot of people on this thread if someone exhibited racist behaviour years ago, they should be held accountable no matter how many times they apologise and demonstrate that they have moved on. The point of life surely is to grow and learn. Bu cancel culture won’t have it, and no matter what you say and how much you apologise, you are held to account, seemingly for ever. I despair of a culture that dismisses a valid point of view because of something that happened years ago. Sorry, but here is a Christian value. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. We have ALL been guilty of some form of racism or prejudice in our past before we knew better. Doesn’t mean that we have no valid opinion now. This is turning into a disgusting thread.

Baddiel's experience is very much that of a secular Jew, and much of his Jewish knowledge is poor. I liked the book, because I think it did excellent job of articulating precisely so many of the issues (I have not seen the TV programme). But some things niggled eg the statement on page 7 "The Talmud is a book of exegesis of the Old Testament, codified in the fourteenth century, and containing the basis of all the archaic rules and laws of Judaism: it was written mainly by rabbis". The Talmud was most definitely not codified in the fourteenth century (the Zohar is attributed to the fourteenth century, the Shulchan Aruch to the sixteenth), but rather the Talmud was finalised in the fifth century (Ravina u'Rav Ashi sof hora'ah) although there are a limited number of emendations that some attribute to the Geonim in perhaps the sixth or seventh century. It is a discussion of just about everything centered around the mishna - (the mishna was finalised in around 200 CE - and they had its text, and their discussions in the study halls veered off in all directions - although the thing it is probably closest to is Hansard, if people had worked and reworked Hansard over the generations, with quotations from MPs over the last two hundred years as they discussed the statutes to redact it down to 32 volumes - if MPs believed they were involved in divinely mandated work to understand life and make law). It is an extraordinary work - although incredibly complex - and of course frequently misquoted and misrepresented - and David Baddiel's "archaic" reference, was really uncalled for.
Why does this particularly niggle? Maybe because I am sure David Baddiel would never confuse his Beowulf with his Shakespeare, or perhaps Bracton: De Legibus Et Consuetudinibus Angliæ (Bracton on the Laws and Customs of England attributed to Henry of Bratton, c. 1210-1268) with completely different and later works of English genius, and yet when it comes to Jewish cultural literacy this kind of howler can be presented to the outside world.

I mean… there’s too many to quote from over the years. The one that always sticks in my mind because my jaw physically dropped when I read it was that Black Africans CHOSE to be enslaved for over 400 years

Of course antisemitism is racism, but it is far from the least recognised or cared about. Quite the opposite. For Baddiel to say this with a straight face, despite everything he has done and that has happened in UK politics, is ludicrous.

Absolutely. Boris Johnson wrote an entire book replete with antisemitic tropes yet suffered absolutely no damage to his career. Kanye said slavery was a choice among other terrible things about the black community and no sponsorships lost yet overnight he managed to irreparably damage his career because of antisemitism. Even if you ignore the rubbish baddiel spouts, his premise is at best deeply flawed and at worse just wrong.

While I admire your scholarship, this is pretty much the definition of pearls before swine. You're making fine theological points to an audience of rabid antisemites.

Perfect example of completely and possibly wilfully misunderstanding what he said. He did not say that anti semitism isn’t treated as seriously. Basically what he’s saying is that Jews are not perceived as economically disadvantaged by the racism shown towards them to the same extent as racism that oppresses other ethnic or racial groups.

What I will say is that there seems to be a tone that some 'minorities' are 'off limits' whilst others are 'fair game'.

Sorry, cut off to early - @ChocoStripe
My more substantive criticism of the book was that while accurately calling out the antisemitism in the poem on the Talmud, the book seems to me to leave the impression that the depiction of the Talmud is correct, and the only problem here is "the use of ancient religion to uphold and promote stereotypes and discrimination against a minority group". Whereas in fact what is going on here is perhaps closer to the trashing of the entirety of the English common law because Bracton says "Women differ from men in many respects, for their position is inferior to that of men." or because child marriage was legal and frequently practiced in England up until at least the 17th century.

But the fact that he does indeed seem to share a lot of the prejudices against religious Jews that are also anti- semitic tropes does not mean he is not spot on when describing anti-semitism more generally. Anti-semitism is a multi headed hydra - cut off one head, and it grows back in a slightly different form.

While I admire your scholarship, this is pretty much the definition of pearls before swine. You're making fine theological points to an audience of rabid antisemites.

Or to get back to my analogy with Hansard - it is as if one offence statement by an MP meant that the whole parliamentary tradition and all of Hansard should be chucked in the bin - because one MP was accurately recorded as being offensive.

I googled, he was anti black in his comments, thought it might have been some other race. I had heard about that but thought he got away with it because he is black.

i dont recall any threads on here calling him out for his anti blackness at the time.