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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to have done two weeks back in school and think oh hell no, nope, no

137 replies

OhHolyFuckNo · 15/11/2022 17:16

Name change for this, long term poster.

I worked in schools historically, but moved into education policy/ancillary stuff around 8 years ago, and recently have been at home with very young kids. I still have a lot of friends in local schools, and honestly, wondered if a few years back in the classroom might be the flexible work I need for family reasons and am struggling to find elsewhere. I dipped a toe back in with a temporary cover role.

I'm just so taken aback by how understaffed the schools are. Half of the people in on any day so far have been cover. Hardly any work is set, and the kids seem bored and justifiably fed up, but the contempt with which the older kids talk to the staff is not justifiable. The stronger staff are on permanent corridor duty maintaining discipline, so not in the classroom either.

Deliberately not putting this on the teaching board because I'm hoping for a range of responses. Is this how it is now? Do parents know? Is it covid as everyone seems to think? How bad is it when hardly anyone knows me but pretty much everyone I spoke to offered me a permanent job?

I would love to think it gets better and I am finding my feet again, but don't know if this is just completely naive and I don't want my own kids to pay the price if it is.

OP posts:
DJSteves · 17/11/2022 19:25

I'm going at the end of this academic year. 22 years in the job and it has changed beyond recognition. My place is not as bad as some, but I'm being expected to manage students with complex behaviour with little guidance or support. Not the job I was trained to do. Cope with a stretched pastoral and support team and a never ending list of jobs to do. We have to constantly put the well-being and needs of our students first. With no one considering our mental well-being. I'm done. Love being with the students but it is not sustainable and I'm not prepared to do it anymore.

brightblueskies80 · 17/11/2022 20:04

We have a recruitment freeze imposed on us by the Trust. As more chn get their EHCPs (delayed due to Covid), we are not allowed to recruit new staff. So class TAs have to become 1:1 TAs. We have large classes that many teachers are with alone all day every day.
Can't get supply teachers when we need them.
It's miserable. No wonder Exit the Classroom and Thrive FB group has 100,000 members.

DJSteves · 17/11/2022 20:13

@brightblueskies80 My friend helped to set that up. She was on 5 live recently highlighting the issue. She was an amazing teacher and a great loss to her school

Jagoda · 17/11/2022 20:16

I quit teaching because I just couldn't cope with the pressures caused by funding cuts. Since then (5 years ago) it just seems to have got worse and worse.

Thanks Tory voters...

IamMummyhearmeROAR · 17/11/2022 21:40

2 days without physical assault. Today punched in the belly. No one reacts, no one informs a parent- it's now seen as normal to be assaulted in the classroom, worst of all by me

winperree · 17/11/2022 21:44

Pinkflipflop85 · 15/11/2022 17:44

It's pretty dire.
I have 12 children on the send register in my class (ks1) before you even begin to consider anyone else's needs. My send number is due to increase as a few more have now had referrals.

I have no TA.

My day to day situation is currently just surviving with nobody getting hurt or doing a runner. Not sure how much longer I can sustain it.

This is just awful

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 18/11/2022 07:23

IamMummyhearmeROAR · 17/11/2022 21:40

2 days without physical assault. Today punched in the belly. No one reacts, no one informs a parent- it's now seen as normal to be assaulted in the classroom, worst of all by me

That's awful and I'm so sorry. You really shouldn't have to put up with being assaulted at work. Is your union rep any good?

The school do have a duty to your health and safety - what happens if you end up seriously injured by a child?

dottiedodah · 18/11/2022 07:34

The cuts the tories have implemented plus covid have really hammered education. My cousin and her husband are both teachers and my friends as well. More and more is squeezed from them until they have enough and leave .maybe some supply work or have a look at another school .you are not being unreasonable

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2022 09:10

inthemarblejar · 17/11/2022 14:00

An enormous problem in state schools at the moment is the levels of SEN and the lack of funding, support and training. Can't speak for private as I rarely get involved with them.

That's aside from the other enormous issues of a general lack of funding/overstretched budgets, teachers having to work ridiculous hours with ridiculous expectations upon them and being made ill from the stress of it all, etc etc.

I'll caveat this by saying that I work in SEND (not in/linked to a school) and also have a child with SEND and an EHCP in a state primary. So when I talk about the children, know that I am not for one minute blaming them, their parents or the schools. You will of course have a handful of awful parents/teachers etc, but these are not the majority. Most parents are desperate to help their children and hate being seen to be 'that parent' in order to make that happen and most teachers are stretched beyond any acceptable level trying to achieve the same aim.

A key issue is local authorities having their fixed view that 'inclusion in mainstream' is the aim. At all costs. It's fucking nonsense, pardon my french. Inclusion in mainstream for children with SEN is wonderful and should absolutely be encouraged IF it's right for that child and IF they can obtain a place at a school that can truly meet their needs. Inclusion at mainstream for lots of children is not appropriate, not do-able, and actually leads to the children not coping and eventually either being formally excluded or removed from school by their parents because they just can't cope with it anymore. Someone posted a link to a report that was recently published over on the SEN education board a couple of weeks ago and a corresponding protest by parents of children with SEN in one county. The report is absolutely hair-raising and heartbreaking. I encourage you all, especially teachers/school staff, to have a read.

My child does receive the support on her EHCP but only because I have the background, expertise and time to be able to (re)write an absolutely watertight (specific, quantified and detailed) section F, lock horns with the local authority when they piddle about arguing trying to make things woollier and trying to remove things that they shouldn't, and ensure that it's followed at school. Most parents do not have the background that I do so I understand why lots of EHCPs are just aren't worth the paper they're written on. My child's very first one was crap.

I see, in schools that I visit for my job and at my own child's school, (mainly primaries, I work less with secondaries) that you have classes now, where you might have 30 children and it's not uncommon for them to have at least 6-7 on SEN support, at least 1 with EHCPs probably 2 so that's around a third of the class. You've then likely got others who are flying under the radar because they're not disruptive but still need more help, perhaps they have a specific but as yet unidentified learning difficulty or they might just be finding it hard to grasp certain skills. The teacher has to maintain behaviour, support the children with SEN differently (and each of them will have differing needs), abide by the EHCPs and then alongside all that, actually teach, mark, review etc! It's an impossible ask. Especially given that most teachers have very little specific SEN training. When you're looking at younger (reception/KS1) children too there is a much higher prevalence these days if things like not being properly toilet trained even with no SEN. Lots of Y1 classes have children who haven't mastered this yet and that causes yet another headache for the staff.

I know of one class at a primary just over the county border from me that's a prime example. KS1, 30ish children mixed year group. They have 10 children on SEN support for varying reasons, 2 with EHCPs, 2 with EHCP assessments in progress. There's are a further 2 who likely will be on at least SEN support very soon. That's half the class! There is a class teacher, two 1-1 TAs for the EHCP children and 1 class TA who is supposedly for the class but ends up split between the 2 children who are going through the EHCNA process. Both of these children need 1-1 support at least some if not all of the time, without a doubt. Without it, they are highly disruptive, very violent to other children and adults, destructive to property etc and at least one of them leads to classroom evacuations probably once a week. You cannot take eyes off them. It's not their fault, their needs are not being met fully and they're lashing out. Totally common, almost expected for children with some types of SEN. But realistically how much can a school take? It is ridiculous for a mainstream classroom of approx 30 to have - if they get what they need along with the other EHCP children - a teacher and FOUR 1-1 TAs assigned to specific children.

Some children with SEN, when properly supported, can thrive in an inclusive mainstream and truly love going. My child is one of them (at the moment!). I am extremely lucky. But for those children whose SEN means that actually they are unlikely to ever be able to access the curriculum or behave in such a way that doesn't hurt people, or manage their day without significant and harmful levels of distress themselves, inclusion in mainstream is NOT the answer. Sometimes, nor is the current 'bar' for special schools. There is a whole group of children with SEN out there that would never qualify for a special school place or actually do well there especially if they have no learning difficulties (I see lots of neurodivergent children, generally autistic or with ADHD who're averagely to extremely academically able) but equally who will never cope with a traditional mainstream classroom environment.

The answer for these children is enhanced provision/hubs within mainstream schools. There are a few cropping up now and for the most part if they're staffed with experienced and well trained in SEN teachers they're great. But they're not common, spaces are rare and they're not well funded. Let's be honest which school can afford these days to fund this sort of thing themselves. Where do the staff come from?

If the local authorities and the government fixed the issues with SEN in schools and dropped the 'inclusion in mainstream at all costs' bullshit then that would go a LONG way to resolving some of the issues that schools are experiencing. Wouldn't fix it all, of course.

You'll notice in my (very longer than planned!) post I've barely mentioned the children in class without SEN. That's telling isn't it. The class teachers that I frequently see barely have time available to pay to them either, and that's not right. All children are being let down by this shitshow, as are the parents (who are often blamed) and teachers (ditto).

I wouldn't be a teacher if you paid me ten million pounds a year.

This is so familiar to me as a parent. And it's actually something of a relief to read.

I couldn't agree more about inclusion at all costs. It just isn't working.

That post could be about my son's class. Except, there are two kids who need a 1 to 1 but are stuck in the process of assessment. I know one has been waiting for 2 and half years. The class has about half with SEN overall.

They have one teacher and one TA.

There are currently incidents going on daily which need to be addressed because of violence and abuse coming from one of the kids who needs a 1 to 1.

School just can't cope. The class is failing on mass.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 18/11/2022 18:23

I think inclusion only ever stands a chance of working if services are properly funded. Obviously schools need to be able to access funding, and parents shouldn't have to fight for ECHPs- it might be better if all ECHP funding came from a central pot, rather than having to come out of already stretched LA budgets, too. It also means the system favours children with actively involved parents who understand the system- children with parents who may have SEN themselves, or who don't speak English well, or who desperately want to believe their child is coping won't fight.

I also do think there needs to be an acknowledgement that some children cannot cope in mainstream classes- simply being in an environment with 30 other kids, two adults, and potentially various others popping in and out is too much for them and they need small group education etc. In some cases, this could be on the same site as mainstream education takes place, and they could even join the class for some lessons. In some cases, it probably does need to be a specialist school.

But small class sizes cost money, too. Special schools definitely cost a lot of money.

I remember attending some training on supporting students with SEN- we were shown a video of "good practice." The teacher had a class of 7 students in a mainstream secondary. And yes, they did an excellent job of supporting all students individually, and they were obviously a great teacher. They had a class TA available, who they deployed effectively.

I had a bottom set "nurture group" in Y9 that year, which had 16 students. Some of the students had really weak literacy and numeracy skills, and some had higher needs than the students we were shown on the video. No TA. Two students were being assessed for an ECHP, one was awaiting an autism diagnosis. Others had diagnosed needs, and at least one clearly had additional needs, but weren't diagnosed. It was a lovely class- but do I feel I supported all their learning well all the time? Absolutely not.

Some of the students were given laptops, too- but with no training on how to use them, I'm not sure how much they helped.

Fuzzywuzzyface · 19/11/2022 07:29

IamMummyhearmeROAR · 17/11/2022 21:40

2 days without physical assault. Today punched in the belly. No one reacts, no one informs a parent- it's now seen as normal to be assaulted in the classroom, worst of all by me

Then you have a head teacher problem. I am support staff in a large primary in a deprived area.
Our head has suspended children who have assaulted staff- some of these are only 5.
Their challenging behaviour is detrimental to the rest of the class and they are the children who will suffer due to the lack of SRB places available. We have a fantastic sen/inclusion and pastoral team and desperately try to get them the education they deserve but you cannot provide this due to lack of funding for specialist education provisions.
Teaching is tough and our staff are exhausted. Our TAs are wonderful who are dedicated to supporting our children, they in turn are supported by a head teacher who considers the welfare of her entire staff.

inthemarblejar · 19/11/2022 16:08

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 18/11/2022 18:23

I think inclusion only ever stands a chance of working if services are properly funded. Obviously schools need to be able to access funding, and parents shouldn't have to fight for ECHPs- it might be better if all ECHP funding came from a central pot, rather than having to come out of already stretched LA budgets, too. It also means the system favours children with actively involved parents who understand the system- children with parents who may have SEN themselves, or who don't speak English well, or who desperately want to believe their child is coping won't fight.

I also do think there needs to be an acknowledgement that some children cannot cope in mainstream classes- simply being in an environment with 30 other kids, two adults, and potentially various others popping in and out is too much for them and they need small group education etc. In some cases, this could be on the same site as mainstream education takes place, and they could even join the class for some lessons. In some cases, it probably does need to be a specialist school.

But small class sizes cost money, too. Special schools definitely cost a lot of money.

I remember attending some training on supporting students with SEN- we were shown a video of "good practice." The teacher had a class of 7 students in a mainstream secondary. And yes, they did an excellent job of supporting all students individually, and they were obviously a great teacher. They had a class TA available, who they deployed effectively.

I had a bottom set "nurture group" in Y9 that year, which had 16 students. Some of the students had really weak literacy and numeracy skills, and some had higher needs than the students we were shown on the video. No TA. Two students were being assessed for an ECHP, one was awaiting an autism diagnosis. Others had diagnosed needs, and at least one clearly had additional needs, but weren't diagnosed. It was a lovely class- but do I feel I supported all their learning well all the time? Absolutely not.

Some of the students were given laptops, too- but with no training on how to use them, I'm not sure how much they helped.

I absolutely agree with you. Funding is the biggest issue. But there's also a problem with culture in some schools. Likely because they're not properly funded to support properly!!

There are so many children with SEN who do not qualify for a special school place but for whom inclusion (in an approx 30 children, mainstream classroom with a standard curriculum etc etc) is never going to work even if they were properly funded and supported. If they were in a enhanced provision/hub within a mainstream site then they could be happy, not distressed, learning, and so could their peers in the mainstream classroom. Then you work on integration at certain times if it suits the needs of the child.

The thing so many people seem to fail to understand when they have these children (especially the younger ones) who're lashing out violently and creating disruption is that they cannot help it. They're not doing it on purpose. They are square pegs being forced into round holes and they're never going to fit. It's ok to acknowledge and address that. It benefits everybody in the school environment to do this.

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