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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to have done two weeks back in school and think oh hell no, nope, no

137 replies

OhHolyFuckNo · 15/11/2022 17:16

Name change for this, long term poster.

I worked in schools historically, but moved into education policy/ancillary stuff around 8 years ago, and recently have been at home with very young kids. I still have a lot of friends in local schools, and honestly, wondered if a few years back in the classroom might be the flexible work I need for family reasons and am struggling to find elsewhere. I dipped a toe back in with a temporary cover role.

I'm just so taken aback by how understaffed the schools are. Half of the people in on any day so far have been cover. Hardly any work is set, and the kids seem bored and justifiably fed up, but the contempt with which the older kids talk to the staff is not justifiable. The stronger staff are on permanent corridor duty maintaining discipline, so not in the classroom either.

Deliberately not putting this on the teaching board because I'm hoping for a range of responses. Is this how it is now? Do parents know? Is it covid as everyone seems to think? How bad is it when hardly anyone knows me but pretty much everyone I spoke to offered me a permanent job?

I would love to think it gets better and I am finding my feet again, but don't know if this is just completely naive and I don't want my own kids to pay the price if it is.

OP posts:
geraniumsandsunshine · 16/11/2022 21:13

I'm also fed up with the school system. Children are not all the same and conprehensives don't work. Have music schools, science schools, more practical skills schools and academic schools. Bring back middles schools and select the best school post 14 for each child forgetting catchments

geraniumsandsunshine · 16/11/2022 21:21

roarfeckingroarr · 15/11/2022 21:59

As a parent, is there any answer except going private if you can?

Private is the plan for my daughter, if we can afford it. If not, I'm going to keep her at home from 13 and enrol her in an online School and hire tutors. Not sending her into a state school

geraniumsandsunshine · 16/11/2022 21:22

Chilena2022 · 15/11/2022 22:33

my son is in reception and has special needs, at the moment he is not allowed to go to
school ( only for one hour and I need to be his TA), until I can get his ECPH that I could take more than 20 weeks.

Legal?

geraniumsandsunshine · 16/11/2022 21:27

I predict education in the future will be 100 kids in a room sitting in individual booths with headphones on listening to a 'teacher' who may or may not be present but can't hear the responses of students. Low paid tech people will be in 'E learning rooms' and boot out anyone messing around. Those who participate and do well will be awarded tokens to use in extra curricular clubs. Not sure about those who don't because there really isn't a lot of discipline options

DarkKarmaIlama · 16/11/2022 22:39

Slow recruitment my ends. Schools can’t afford support staff so that’s the reason I think.

Dancingqueenwannabe · 17/11/2022 07:10

geraniumsandsunshine · 16/11/2022 21:27

I predict education in the future will be 100 kids in a room sitting in individual booths with headphones on listening to a 'teacher' who may or may not be present but can't hear the responses of students. Low paid tech people will be in 'E learning rooms' and boot out anyone messing around. Those who participate and do well will be awarded tokens to use in extra curricular clubs. Not sure about those who don't because there really isn't a lot of discipline options

Sadly this would be cheered on by some. I was listening to a radio debate about teaching and teachers striking last week and some members of the public seem to think covid proved that we don't need teachers in a classroom. That children received a good enough education with the one size fits all videos that were available online.

Now if only they came to teach my class one day with my 4 way differentiation of activities which then need to be differentiated further in the group work 😕.

I fear the teachers strike is the only strike action members of the public will not support. 2 years ago all we heard was open the schools, we can't teach at home and there was a new found respect for teaching and the challenges of being a teacher. That is long forgotten by some now and with the government showing such disregard for education I'm not surprised.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 17/11/2022 07:24

The vast majority of people don't think online education or mass education in a hall is right for their child though. Just other people's.

I think before we see anything like that we'll see a move to deprofessionalise teaching - so instead of having a post grad qualified subject specialist as the norm in secondary, you'll unqualified cover supervisors delivering video lessons from a provider like oak academy. Which, to be honest, is already happening in some schools and some subjects.

But again, it's not good quality education and doesn't teach important practical skills etc.

I teach biology at a level, and my school has a largish sixth form, lots of students from other, smaller schools without sixth forms come to us to do a levels etc. Some of them have very poor practical skills - I know this is partly covid, but we are talking never used a microscope, never built a circuit, never used a Bunsen burner etc. That suggests a long term lack of practical teaching even prior to covid.

To succeed on a science based degree, as well as a good knowledge of theory, you need decent practical skills. And a lot of (important, valuable) jobs use these skills. If they aren't being taught at secondary level then it does have negative implications for the country and the economy.

And I'd say that's the same across a lot of practical subjects.

DarkKarmaIlama · 17/11/2022 08:06

@Postapocalypticcowgirl

Yes. Heading for that for sure. I’ve always wanted to be a teacher but I’m not sure there’s any point putting myself through a PGCE now. All the cheap unqualified staff hold the power now and they’re not scrutinised as much as the expensive teachers. They know they’re safe from mostly from their wrath.

DarkKarmaIlama · 17/11/2022 08:07

Apologies that didn’t even make sense at the end.

Aleaiactaest · 17/11/2022 08:14

It is like that in state schools. Meanwhile in some top private schools you have a staff to student ratio of 8:1. So many good graduates go straight to private schools because life is more enjoyable for them there. The same happens in the NHS. The consultants work privately too, increasingly more hours. Dentists too etc
Most of my friends who taught state are now in private schools. The work load is also big but they are not as battered by regulations, generally freer, better behaved kids etc. I do not know what the solution is.
At the end of the day, teachers are educated people who deserve to be paid well and treated well. If they are not, then they will either retrain, move to another job or work in the private sector.

celticprincess · 17/11/2022 09:00

Covid might be in part to play. But a lot of staff are off with stress and anxiety. Recruitment isn’t great in some areas - think rural and towns with bad transport links. Schools are struggling to support SEND students as their budgets are stretched. When send students aren’t properly supported then behaviours can escalate. This can lead to staff not wanting to go into work due to areas and anxiety etc.

School based work is not a family friendly option in reality. It can be costly for before and after school care and there’s no flexibility with this on many schools. Or some schools employ staff on a 10-2 type contract so they can work around childcare but this drops pay a lot and also leaves classes without support. It only really works for TAs and not teachers who tend to get to school anytime from 7:30 onwards and who can still be in school at 5:30. Teachers with children are reliant on wrap around care that often doesn’t open early enough or stay open late enough. Yes school staff get the 13 weeks school holidays - they aren’t paid for 13 weeks though. Only the statutory time is paid and contracts are 1265 hours for teaching staff and ‘term time’ contracts for TA/cleaning staff etc. I’ve know a lot of parents get TA roles thinking it will be all great for holidays and childcare then in reality their pay packet means they can’t actually afford to stay at the job. There’s no ‘overtime’ if you work full time. But many work longer than their actual hours - taking work home at weekends and on evenings.

Staff turnover in some schools is fast. This also leads to more staff leaving as well as staff get more work put on them and a vicious recruitment cycle.

Aleaiactaest · 17/11/2022 09:15

“Schools are struggling to support SEND students as their budgets are stretched. When send students aren’t properly supported then behaviours can escalate.”
It is the same story in the NHS isn’t it. With not enough social care, you get bed blocking. People deserve to die with dignity and live their last few lives in a supported way.
Young people with special needs and special educational needs need early intervention and support to become valued members of society. Cutting mental health and support is the worst thing the government can do.

My youngest is still in state primary. It works really well in our school because staff are valued and parents are supportive. Staff can use the excellent wrap around care and the admissions policy was changed so their DC can attend. Most of the TAs are former parents too. Part time working parents make time to go in and read with the children, cook etc, support in whatever they can. So there are still schools like that at primary level.

geraniumsandsunshine · 17/11/2022 10:05

I don't know what the solution is. Perhaps partially state funded, partially private schools.

noblegiraffe · 17/11/2022 10:21

The solution is to properly fund state education through general taxation instead of the government pissing our money up the wall on fucking ridiculous choices of prime minister, handouts to their mates, ignoring Shell's request for a windfall tax etc etc.

Squidlydoo · 17/11/2022 10:49

noblegiraffe · 17/11/2022 10:21

The solution is to properly fund state education through general taxation instead of the government pissing our money up the wall on fucking ridiculous choices of prime minister, handouts to their mates, ignoring Shell's request for a windfall tax etc etc.

10000% this!

GravyDramas · 17/11/2022 11:54

Quality of education in private schools might not be affected by lack of funds, but there are some of the poorest standards of safeguarding, mental health and SEND provision in the private sector.

DarkKarmaIlama · 17/11/2022 13:05

@GravyDramas

I agree. I’ve worked across the board in mental health provision and some of the private schools take on MH is just….. well I genuinely haven’t even got the words 🤦‍♀️.

Jules912 · 17/11/2022 13:09

GravyDramas · 17/11/2022 11:54

Quality of education in private schools might not be affected by lack of funds, but there are some of the poorest standards of safeguarding, mental health and SEND provision in the private sector.

Indeed. In theory the calmer environment and smaller class sizes of private school would really help my daughter with ASD. In practice I suspect we wouldn't even get through the door even if we could afford it, or she'd be asked to leave after one meltdown.

inthemarblejar · 17/11/2022 14:00

An enormous problem in state schools at the moment is the levels of SEN and the lack of funding, support and training. Can't speak for private as I rarely get involved with them.

That's aside from the other enormous issues of a general lack of funding/overstretched budgets, teachers having to work ridiculous hours with ridiculous expectations upon them and being made ill from the stress of it all, etc etc.

I'll caveat this by saying that I work in SEND (not in/linked to a school) and also have a child with SEND and an EHCP in a state primary. So when I talk about the children, know that I am not for one minute blaming them, their parents or the schools. You will of course have a handful of awful parents/teachers etc, but these are not the majority. Most parents are desperate to help their children and hate being seen to be 'that parent' in order to make that happen and most teachers are stretched beyond any acceptable level trying to achieve the same aim.

A key issue is local authorities having their fixed view that 'inclusion in mainstream' is the aim. At all costs. It's fucking nonsense, pardon my french. Inclusion in mainstream for children with SEN is wonderful and should absolutely be encouraged IF it's right for that child and IF they can obtain a place at a school that can truly meet their needs. Inclusion at mainstream for lots of children is not appropriate, not do-able, and actually leads to the children not coping and eventually either being formally excluded or removed from school by their parents because they just can't cope with it anymore. Someone posted a link to a report that was recently published over on the SEN education board a couple of weeks ago and a corresponding protest by parents of children with SEN in one county. The report is absolutely hair-raising and heartbreaking. I encourage you all, especially teachers/school staff, to have a read.

My child does receive the support on her EHCP but only because I have the background, expertise and time to be able to (re)write an absolutely watertight (specific, quantified and detailed) section F, lock horns with the local authority when they piddle about arguing trying to make things woollier and trying to remove things that they shouldn't, and ensure that it's followed at school. Most parents do not have the background that I do so I understand why lots of EHCPs are just aren't worth the paper they're written on. My child's very first one was crap.

I see, in schools that I visit for my job and at my own child's school, (mainly primaries, I work less with secondaries) that you have classes now, where you might have 30 children and it's not uncommon for them to have at least 6-7 on SEN support, at least 1 with EHCPs probably 2 so that's around a third of the class. You've then likely got others who are flying under the radar because they're not disruptive but still need more help, perhaps they have a specific but as yet unidentified learning difficulty or they might just be finding it hard to grasp certain skills. The teacher has to maintain behaviour, support the children with SEN differently (and each of them will have differing needs), abide by the EHCPs and then alongside all that, actually teach, mark, review etc! It's an impossible ask. Especially given that most teachers have very little specific SEN training. When you're looking at younger (reception/KS1) children too there is a much higher prevalence these days if things like not being properly toilet trained even with no SEN. Lots of Y1 classes have children who haven't mastered this yet and that causes yet another headache for the staff.

I know of one class at a primary just over the county border from me that's a prime example. KS1, 30ish children mixed year group. They have 10 children on SEN support for varying reasons, 2 with EHCPs, 2 with EHCP assessments in progress. There's are a further 2 who likely will be on at least SEN support very soon. That's half the class! There is a class teacher, two 1-1 TAs for the EHCP children and 1 class TA who is supposedly for the class but ends up split between the 2 children who are going through the EHCNA process. Both of these children need 1-1 support at least some if not all of the time, without a doubt. Without it, they are highly disruptive, very violent to other children and adults, destructive to property etc and at least one of them leads to classroom evacuations probably once a week. You cannot take eyes off them. It's not their fault, their needs are not being met fully and they're lashing out. Totally common, almost expected for children with some types of SEN. But realistically how much can a school take? It is ridiculous for a mainstream classroom of approx 30 to have - if they get what they need along with the other EHCP children - a teacher and FOUR 1-1 TAs assigned to specific children.

Some children with SEN, when properly supported, can thrive in an inclusive mainstream and truly love going. My child is one of them (at the moment!). I am extremely lucky. But for those children whose SEN means that actually they are unlikely to ever be able to access the curriculum or behave in such a way that doesn't hurt people, or manage their day without significant and harmful levels of distress themselves, inclusion in mainstream is NOT the answer. Sometimes, nor is the current 'bar' for special schools. There is a whole group of children with SEN out there that would never qualify for a special school place or actually do well there especially if they have no learning difficulties (I see lots of neurodivergent children, generally autistic or with ADHD who're averagely to extremely academically able) but equally who will never cope with a traditional mainstream classroom environment.

The answer for these children is enhanced provision/hubs within mainstream schools. There are a few cropping up now and for the most part if they're staffed with experienced and well trained in SEN teachers they're great. But they're not common, spaces are rare and they're not well funded. Let's be honest which school can afford these days to fund this sort of thing themselves. Where do the staff come from?

If the local authorities and the government fixed the issues with SEN in schools and dropped the 'inclusion in mainstream at all costs' bullshit then that would go a LONG way to resolving some of the issues that schools are experiencing. Wouldn't fix it all, of course.

You'll notice in my (very longer than planned!) post I've barely mentioned the children in class without SEN. That's telling isn't it. The class teachers that I frequently see barely have time available to pay to them either, and that's not right. All children are being let down by this shitshow, as are the parents (who are often blamed) and teachers (ditto).

I wouldn't be a teacher if you paid me ten million pounds a year.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 17/11/2022 17:59

DarkKarmaIlama · 17/11/2022 08:06

@Postapocalypticcowgirl

Yes. Heading for that for sure. I’ve always wanted to be a teacher but I’m not sure there’s any point putting myself through a PGCE now. All the cheap unqualified staff hold the power now and they’re not scrutinised as much as the expensive teachers. They know they’re safe from mostly from their wrath.

I get what you mean and I do disagree for a couple of reasons:

  1. In a lot of schools, cover supervisors etc do get cut before qualified teachers.

  2. If you want to progress, you generally need QTS at least, if not the PGCE. Plus, the decent schools (the ones you actually want to work in) still value QTS.

  3. I do think if there's a change of party in government, they'll want to improve standards in education (I hope). Which leaves unqualified staff in quite precarious positions.

I'd at least work to get QTS via the assessment only route.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 17/11/2022 18:03

noblegiraffe · 17/11/2022 10:21

The solution is to properly fund state education through general taxation instead of the government pissing our money up the wall on fucking ridiculous choices of prime minister, handouts to their mates, ignoring Shell's request for a windfall tax etc etc.

Research also shows that investing in education is actually an investment in the economy. If we don't produce skilled workers who can work in highly profitable fields (both STEM, and the growing elements of the creative economy in the UK) then we will enter a downward spiral as a country. Whereas, long term, if we can produce people with the skills to work in industry, to set up companies, to develop niche technologies, etc, then that would really help the UK overall and increase tax revenue.

Appuskidu · 17/11/2022 18:09

All the cheap unqualified staff hold the power now

That isn’t my experience at all.

polio999 · 17/11/2022 18:20

All the cheap unqualified staff hold the power now
That isn’t my experience at all

no mine either, the kids and the parents hold it all.

justasking111 · 17/11/2022 18:24

Primary level post covid. A lot of part time job sharing teachers. The head teacher in her fifties has pulled up the drawbridge. She won't reinstate the PTA which did raise thousands every year. Won't discuss the problems with parents or governors. Governors that quit haven't been replaced. The teachers are walking on eggshells around her. The education authority say if a complaint's raised it's nothing to do with them to raise it with the head.

She has attempted to get perfectly ordinary pupils statemented with Senco to get more help. Senco say the children are fine.

She's treading water to get to retirement I suspect. The atmosphere has changed so much it's very sad

earsup · 17/11/2022 18:27

I got out early a few years ago...now do gardening and diy jobs for people...i do sometimes think about doing supply work but the agencies never seem to have any work near me and the other day i took a bus and sat upstairs....it was going home time...after a few stops i got off and walked...the behaviour was so so bad....think i stick to plants and flowers..!!